Lee Dippers, Lee Classic Loader, and powder question

[kyoung05]

Ok, so I know I posted something here a while back concerning getting started in reloading. Since then, I've read a lot on the subject, bought and read "Metallic Cartridge Reloading", and have a much better idea of the whole process. I was initially going to get some single stage press setup going, but since I have moved back home and space is really limited, decided to go with something smaller. I could mount the press onto a board and clamp it to my desk and reload that way, but starting out, it seems like a lot of trouble for something I don't even know if I'll stick with. Ok, so I have decided to just go with the Lee Classic loaders, the ones you use with the rubber mallets, and an Autoprime. I figure that priming won't be so scary, and I don't have to buy any dies, saving me $30 per caliber. I've read people are able to reload up to 50 rounds an hour using this slow setup, so it should serve my needs just fine for the time being, since at this stage, I'll just be experimenting (with reloading, not loads). Ok, so my questions concerns those Lee dippers that they come with.

So, from what I gather, the Lee Loaders come with 1 dipper for that particular caliber, and a table listing what the measured weights would be for corresponding powders. So far, so good. Now, I don't want to mess around with many loads, but I've read that the dippers they supply usually make somewhat underpowered loads. Anemic loads for revolvers would be fine, but the last thing I'd want to do would be to hammer out a squid-type load out of a semi-auto. So, I decided to get the whole dipper setup. I don't know what the different weights they include are, but, I imagine it'll give me a bit more flexibility on getting my loads so they will be in the medium range. Anyone have any experience with these things? I know they're not the most accurate nor the fastest ways to measure powder, but from what I've gathered, it seems they are accurate within 1/10th of a grain, and loading only to medium levels, I think they'll be fine. Any further advice regarding these or the Lee loader in general? (Please, no posts telling me how slow it is, because I know already. If I decide I like reloading, then I will get a real press later down the road. I just want to get my feet wet, so to speak.)

Also, regarding different powders. I plan on starting with .45acp and .38spl. I want a versatile power, but I also want something easy to measure using the dippers. I was going to just go with Unique, but it since it's a flaky powder, will this adversely affect accurate measurement using only dippers? I also read some good things about W231 and Hogdgons Universal Clays. Are these ball type powders? Easier to measure? Just as or more versatile?

Lastly, what kind of primers do I need to get? Can I just the same primers for .38spl as I do for .45acp? What about .357 magnum? I know the Lee Autoprime can only be used with CCI or Winchester primers, and that is fine by me.

Anyways, I appreciate any advice and or comments. Thanks!

 

[griz]

I've got the set of dippers that Lee sells. They come in increments of 0.3 CC's, which is only a measure of volume, not weight. The set comes with a chart that tells you roughly how many grains of which powder a particular dipper should provide. They are useful tools, but there is no way they will be accurate to within 0.1 grains compared to the chart. There is too much variation with technique, the dipper itself, the powder lot, etc. Furthermore the increments between, say the smallest dipper to the next one up, are much bigger than you need. For 231, the smallest throws around 3.1 grains while the next one throws 5.2 grains. That's way too big a step up if 3.1 is too little in a 45. Now with practice the dippers can be accurate from charge to charge, you just can not rely on them as the sole method of measuring powder.

If you haven't seen where I'm going yet, buy or borrow a scale. Even a cheap one will do fine, and nothing else will tell you the actual weight of the charge you have. You can make your own dippers by the way. Use an old fired case, glue on a handle, and using yours scale and trial and error, file it to the length you need to throw a particular charge.

Powders: 231 and Universal are both great for 38 and 45. 231 is a ball powder, Universal is not but they both measure very well.

38 and 357 use small pistol primers, the 45 uses large pistol, so there is no interchangability there. The 38 and 357 can be loaded with the same primer. You may or may not end up using magnum primers in the 357, but to start with you can use the same regular primers in both.

 

[foghornl]

Waaaay back, I relaoded my 44Mags using the Lee Loader and the dipper set. I don't have nay of that stuff anymore, but the dipper I used was rated for 11.8 or so grains of Unique (1979-1980 time frame) A reloader buddy had a scale, and I found I was able to make fairly consistant loads with the scoopers. IIRC, my dipper actually threw a charge average of 11.7,

 

[Tacoma]

I have a full set o dippers somewhere. As mentioned they measure volume not weight. Weight of powder can vary from can to can . the consistancy you cna obtain can vary as much as 10% or so when talking small charges. ( depending on how you dip and level off the case.

Lastly, the approximation charts provided by LEE are be off by another 5-10% regularly. My advice is that if you REALLY want to reload for handgun where charges are small and mistakes big, , get a used ( Lee or better ) scale at minimum so you can weigh you charges and get some consistancy. Better than that, get a powder dispenser to get you close so you can weigh only every 5th charge.

FWIW, I like Bullseye, W231 or Clays to reload both 45acp and 38. All these will work reasonably well but must be measured precicely for safety and accuracy.

 

[Ross]

I guess all mechanical measures measure by volume. The important part of charging is to get the charges all the same. Even the best measures vary from lot to lot of any particular powder, but the good ones can drop consistent charges, even without a scale. With good technique, the Lee dippers are pretty consistent.
Many charges are not particularly fussy, and will work fine if a few tenths over or under the selected recipe.
If you are loading on the brink of disaster, an analytical balance's records could be helpful for the coroner.
Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

 

[kyoung05]

Thanks for all the advice. I am researching load data and I see that with Win 231 powder, the small dipper will work fine for .38 special bullets, dropping 3.2 grains of powder over a 158gr SWC or 148gr WC seems like a pretty good load from what I've read. The next size up is 5.4gr, which seems to be a hotter .45acp load, but not maximum or anything (although some manuals suggest 5.1gr is the maximum, quite a few say it is actually something closer to 5.7gr, and some load data suggests that 5.7gr of W231 over 230gr FMJ is a very accurate load). I plan on getting a scale too, but only plan on using the dippers to charge my loads, at least for the time being. So, it looks like a set of dippers, Lee Autoprime with proper shellholders, and the Lee Classic loaders in whatever calibers I want seems like a good initial setup, sans scale and hammer/mallet. Can the dippers charge powder directly into cartridges without too much mess, or should I get the powder funnel too? Thanks.

 

[roo_ster]

kyoung05:

The Lee dipper set is a handy bit of equipment on which consistent powder throws can be made. The key is good and consistent technique, just as with a powder measure. Essentially, slip the dipper into the powder, butt first; raise up dipper and then scrape off with a stiff card. Read the Lee relaoding book for details.

My favorite use for the dippers is in load development. I choose a dipper that dispenses slightly less than the desired weight and then use a powder trickler & scale to get the powder charge to the exact weight I desire. I can vary dipping technique to get a bit more powder & reduce "trickle time" as I increase the powder desired for a particular batch of cartridges.

Getting your hands on a cheap scale is a good idea to check your powder throws, though the Lee dippers have erred on the conservative side each and every time I checked them versus a scale.

Last, you might want to check out hte Lee Hand Press as an alternative to the Lee Loader. That is how I started in an apt and you'll have plenty of power for resizing pistol cases, especially if you give them a spay of that Hornady case lube that does not need to be wiped off.

Good luck.

 

[gunbutler]

try my set

I have lots of good information on my cd set. You might even try one of my software suites for calculating. www.gunbutler.com

 

[Kamicosmos]

Scale, powder trickler, and dippers is how I loaded for many years, and still do on single stage.

Not too much of an investment and much safer and way more consistant than just using the scoop and eyeballing it!

 

[Black Snowman]

I still use my Lee Safety Scale. $20 or less most places that carry them. Worth the investment. If you stick with it look at the Lee Hand Press as a future upgrade for the space impared.

 

[JNewell]

Lastly, the approximation charts provided by LEE are be off by another 5-10% regularly

I guess all mechanical measures measure by volume. The important part of charging is to get the charges all the same.

The dippers are fine as far as they go. They can be very consistent if you technique is OK, but the first quote above is right. Fortunately, in my experience, the Lee charts are usually off on the light side -- the charge is lighter than the chart says it should be. However, you really should at least figure out what weight a given dipper is dispensing before you charge cases with that dipper.

 

[kyoung05]

Yea, I'd of course look to see what the given measure of a particular powder for a particular size dipper was BEFORE loading any rounds. In fact, I'm actually shopping for powders that work well (read produce medium loads) for the given dipper sizes/measurements, eg. W231 in the smallest .3cc dipper is something like 3.2gr, which would be perfect for 148gr wadcutters and 158gr SWC, and the next size up .5cc measures something like 5.4gr for my .45acp loads.

 

[redneck2]

if you get a scale, you'll find out how little 1/10 of a grain of powder is. If you spill 1/10th, it's nearly invisible. The total load of fast powder for a small case could go on the eraser end of a pencil.

The faster the powder, the more difference very (and I mean very) small changes in charge weight make. The correct charge of fast powder (Bullseye for example) may barely be enough to see. Something slower like 231 may fill most of the case. You might try loads that nearly fill the case to be safe.

You can get the cheapest balance beam scale for maybe $20, or look on e-bay for a used one.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I have a Lee dipper set. When I bought my first scale (5-0-5) I found out just how inaccurate they were. No matter how I tried, I could not get a consistent throw. I still have them and I only use two of them, .5cc and 2.2cc. I use them to dump powder into the powder pan of my electronic scale (RCBS) when loading rifle cases. Other wise then that, they are collecting dust.

 

[Uncle Don]

How can they possibly be inaccurate? The dipper has the same amount of volume when YOU put it in the powder from one time to the next. You can easily stay within a tenth a grain for consistancy - you just have to do the same thing each time.

I've heard many people blame design when they can't figure out how to run a machine / loader, but this is the first time I heard someone say that a spoon is inconsistant - and blame the spoon.

 

[MoeMentum]

Kyoung05, After you get the Lee Classic loader, and get some reloads done, let us know how you made out, I was just thinking of getting one myself, for 38 spl.

 

[kyoung05]

I will definitely report back to you guys. I will no doubt have some questions.

 

[JNewell]

The dipper has the same amount of volume when YOU put it in the powder from one time to the next. You can easily stay within a tenth a grain for consistancy - you just have to do the same thing each time.

Uncle Don's right. The dippers measure volume -- same as most powder measures. The powder measures need to be set by weight. The dippers really do too, the Lee chart notwithstanding.

I've found the same with the chart supplied with the Lee Autodisk measure. I almost always have to go up a couple of sizes to get the desired weight charge.

 

[SpaceCowboy]

I use the dippers and have not had a problem with them. I do like loading very anemic rounds however. I have a set of the old "off set" dippers, the ones that are in between the ones that you can buy now. They are no longer produced, but if you can find them at a gunshow or online auction they are certainly worth it and help in building medium to full power loads.

As far as powder goes I really like WW231 and the newer super target. I also use red dot and clays(the clays is kind of dirty though).

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Properly dipped, the lee dippers can be amazingly consistent. The key is to let the powder drift into the dipper and not drag it through. Also use a business card to strike off the excess powder and then weigh the charge.

My grip is the little cardboard chart seems to be a "bit" conservative. What they say is 5.5 grns is commonly more like 5.2 in my experience.