Lee ermy On Glocks and caliber selections

[varoadking]

...he is an ex-marine...

I'm told there is no such thing...

 

[Phil W]

I DO own a M&P 45, but my summer carry is a 9mm. It occured to me that I doubt if I could stop at one shot under extreme circumstances. A minimun of 2 shots would be instinct to me. So I feel the 9mm will suffice.

 

[~Boomslang~]

I love Roy Lee, However everything these days seems to be "Gunny Approved" Including SOG knives and multi tools made in China. I've owned a couple and they are no better than the 18 dollar folders you can buy at the gas station, just prettier, and a hell of alot more expensive. If someone gets popped with a 9mm once, in the arm even. they are changing their plans for the day. Center mass double tap, thats the rule, and believe me the 9mm is fine.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Hmm. I just read a firsthand account of a guy who put 5 rounds of .45ACP in the chest of an attacker at close range while that same attacker was shooting at him with a .357 Magnum Colt Python. When the attacker ran out of ammo, he pulled a knife and came across a pool table at the lawman who'd just shot 5 rounds of .45 ACP into that guy's chest. Said lawman then put a sixth round into the attacker's skull, promptly ending the fight.

I like the round a lot, but accounts of its successes and failures are just as numerous as any other commonly used defensive handgun round, and have been around at least as long as when Fairbairn and Sykes wrote about the same back in 1942 (based upon experience drawn from previous years of service in Shanghai, in which they had many opportunities to observe the successes and failures of many handgun and rifle rounds).

In the case of the lawman's experience, he said the usual important thing: the determination of your attacker will have almost as much effect on the outcome of his being shot as your ability to put rounds effectively on target.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Think of it like poker. There's only one hand that beats all other hands. And you won't be dealt that hand.

So there are no absolutes. Go for the hand that gives you the best odds of winning. With a revolver, I go with .357. With an automatic, I go with .45 ACP.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

In the case of the lawman's experience, he said the usual important thing: the determination of your attacker will have almost as much effect on the outcome of his being shot as your ability to put rounds effectively on target.

That is very true, but with one exception: hits to the central nervous system. A bullet into nerve points such as the spinal cord, brain stem, and brain will shut down body systems like a light switch. Determination cannot overcome dead nerves. Legs that aren't getting the "run" signal aren't going to move. Move higher up on the spinal cord and ever more body functions will just stop working, even if the attacker is willing himself to keep going. There is of course even an exception to this exception. There have been cases where people have suffered trauma to certain parts of the brain and retained their consciousness and ability to move. While extremely rare, physical brain trauma is not 100% effective. Nothing is. But the point remains, the only true reliable way to shut an attacker off light a light switch, is to damage/sever their central nervous system. Personally, I pick the caliber that gives me the most chances to do that reliably. Like I said before, 4 shots of 9mm where 3 are mediocre but one cuts the attackers spine is far better than 1 shot of .45 that causes a big hole but doesn't damage anything vital.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Exception included. That's why an important word was used: "almost."

 

[luigi]

Do you think all of those nascar guys really like M&M peanuts and Coca Cola? They are paid to endorse the product

How could you not like peanut M&Ms and Coke?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Actually, when Remey says the .45 does better thant the 9mm I think he is right, at least for the military and use of FMJ. But 3 rounds of 9 per attacker? Well some yea, but I would not make a blanket statement on that.

But with good JHPs now made by many a maker we know from use in major police departments the 9mm isn't bad at all.

But if we have to compromise.... .40 is where to start.

Deaf

 

[~Boomslang~]

I had read about a good many fantastic accounts of superhuman feats performed by violent attackers getting shot with this or that inferior cartridge. Then there is what actually happens when a 5.56 or a 9x19 hits the intended target. whether in the leg, arm, or center mass. The reality is, weapons droppin, buckets of blood, running if they can, screaming, and a whole lotta shakin goin on. I sure as hell wouldnt want to trade places with em.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

As always, shot placement is paramount. Stacking the deck in your favor with some mass and frontal diameter is fine. But even with today's JHP, there just isn't as much difference in the actual amount of tissue damaged between most popular defensive handgun calibers. I love my 10mm, but my next handgun will likely be a 9mm.

Handguns are handguns. Rifles are rifles. If a 9mm doesn't do the trick, its not likely a .45 would have done appreciably better. And it only has to work good enough to get me to my M1A or a 12 gauge.

How could you not like peanut M&Ms and Coke?

Coke is gross. I only tolerate it as a mixer for my Jack or Captn', and even then it is almost a waste of perfectly acceptable alcohol. I'd wear their shirt if they paid me to, but if they wanted me to drink it, that would cost extra.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Coke might be okay for The Capt' but why mess up good Jack?

... and to keep on topic, .45 under the pillow, .357 in the drawer, .40 on the hip, .380 in the pocket..... all to get me to the 870 in the closet

 

[El_Tortuga]

I like Lee Ermey as much as the next guy, but I don't think his anecdotal opinions on this subject should be taken with anything more than a grain of salt (and, I can say all of this as a guy who actually carries a Glock 37 in .45 GAP as a duty weapon).

First, the 9mm vs. .45 debate is about as old as dirt, and with modern ammo I'd say that either one is equally capable of stopping a fight. I've actually attended seminars where various handgun loads were fired into calibrated ballistic gelatin, per the FBI protocol. The 9mm almost always has a slight edge on penetration, and the 45 almost always has a slight edge on expanded size. The emphasis in this statement should be on the term SLIGHT. If you put the bullet where it needs to go, the problem is solved; if not, it is anyone's guess.

I've personally witnessed the stopping power of both the 9mm and the .45 firsthand. I wouldn't hesitate to carry either into a fight, and I've even considered making the switch to 9mm (magazine capacity is much better, and follow-up shots are faster). Conversely, I've seen both the 9mm and .45cal fail to stop a human, and these failures nearly always resulted from poor shot placement.

As for the Glock vs 1911 debate, I think that Glocks have a better track record for reliability, which is more crucial for duty use. 1911 pistols win more action pistol competitions, but that doesn't make them more viable for duty/defensive carry.

Still, I'd say that Lee Ermey might just be a little biased on this subject, particularly since he's on the Glock payroll. Todd Jarret thinks Para is wonderful, and Rob Leatham seems to like Springfield. Notice a trend here? It isn't an unbiased endorsement when they are paying the bills for you!

Just some food for thought.

Wow. Could it be that more than 1 manufacturer makes a good weapon? Blasphemy!

 

[P30shtr]

1. He's kind of sponsored by Glock/represents them (he's on all the posters and shirts," this is my Glock, there are many like it", yada,yada,yada)

2. He's an old head. .45acp is all they know. Not all of 'em but, it seems that way about alot of older guys.

thats all.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

2. He's an old head. .45acp is all they know. Not all of 'em but, it seems that way about alot of older guys.

thats all.

Ahem!!!! Granted I am a BIG fan of the .45acp and have more than one (Don't like Glocks though) But I have many other calibres of pistols. I wouldn't say most of us "older folks" are all up for .45. My Dad actually hated the .45. Preferred the .357mag