Left-liberal...can shoot, too

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Oleg Volk, Dec 9, 2007.

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  1. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    As long as you say that, why would any Democrat change his/her platform to include your pro-gun views, though? Or why would any Republican pay any attention to your opinions, either? They already know how you will vote, so they don't care.

    That goes both ways, of course. Those who promise to vote for whatever pile of crap their party puts up -- whichever party it is -- have little real influence. "Swing" voters have almost ALL the influence today.
     
  2. brighamr

    brighamr Member

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    Yes, speaking from someone who has lived in AZ, CA, UT, MT, OR, and NV. I have seen first hand the high crime rates in the pro-RKBA states and the non-existent crime rates in CA.

    /sarcasm
     
  3. Roswell 1847

    Roswell 1847 member

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    Did your student body consist of Muslims only?
    Were non Muslims allowed to carry weapons, and at the same time forbidden from wearing or carrying anything with a symbol of their faith on it outside their home?

    Plenty of people in the Sudan carry weapons openly, they use them to gun down and/or enslave any non muslims they come upon.
     
  4. jabotinsky

    jabotinsky Member

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    Because I'm not interested in pushing my beliefs on others. I can understand why many here would think it's important to support the NRA and gun rights, but it's not a requirement for membership, just a love of guns. I'm here mostly to learn and share and help each other out.
     
  5. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    What does that have to do with anything?

    (By "any Republican" and "any Democrat" I mean any politician who wants your vote, not any random person with a voter registration.)
     
  6. MakAttak

    MakAttak Member

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    So your belief (I assume) that people should have a right to own guns should not be forced on others.

    This means:
    Other people who believe you should not own guns should be allowed to act on those beliefs since you will not force your beliefs.


    Do you see the problem here?
     
  7. RPCVYemen

    RPCVYemen Member

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    Absolutely.

    A funny incident: there was a metal detector at the gates of the school I taught (YALI - Yemen American Language Institute). One day, do to some security directive, someone actually turned it on. All my students were late for class. They all had to walk back to their cars and deposit their pistols and then come back to class.

    There were Jews in some of the tribal areas. From PCVs in those areas, the Jews were not allowed to carry weapons. Since I got back to the States, I have heard that the Jews were treated terribly there - no PCVs ever reported that, but any maltreatment may not have happened in front of PCVs.

    I don't think there were any other religious groups in North Yemen while I was there. One time when we were traveling in the mountains, we got close to a village, and the people started throwing stones. Our drivers backed down the mountains - backing down an old Turkish donkey trail with blue sky on three sides is sort of interesting. I don't know why our drivers started to take us there. For some reason, I got the impression that the village might have been Sikh. I have never heard of Sikhs in Yemen, so I may have been wrong. It was very early and my Arabic wasn't very good, and the drivers didn't speak English, so I don't know what was really going on. I may have completely mis-understood the situation. The "blue sky on three sides" part was making me pretty nervous...

    Mike
     
  8. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Mak, I think he misunderstood what I meant. When I said, "Republican or Democrat", I meant politician, not voter.

    I'm sure he, too, would agree that trying to influence our representatives is important.
     
  9. Foosinho

    Foosinho Member

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    Despite the fact that Senate Democrats voted by a margin of 2-1 in support of the Vitter Amendment - that addressed a clearly unreasonable restriction of gun rights? (Yeah, that's still 33% who supported confiscation of legal guns, which is too many, but it's a clear minority.) If Democrats were overwhelmingly anti-gun, wouldn't they have voted overwhelmingly that it's appropriate for authorities to confiscate legally owned guns during a disaster?

    Don't forget, 91% of Americans feel that some kind of restriction on gun ownership is legitimate (ie, harder to buy than a pint of ice cream), and 57% feel major restrictions (including some kinds of bans) are appropriate - and the courts have consistently supported the position that gun ownership can be regulated.

    So again - we aren't talking about "no guns" vs "unrestricted guns". We're talking about people who differ only by a matter of degree about what is reasonable an effective. The range may be wide, but the number of people who think guns should be eliminated is actually pretty small.

    For the record I don't agree with either end of the spectrum.
     
  10. lysander

    lysander Member

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    This issue of bridging the gap between party and ideological lines is something I have attempted to get at on THR before.

    I think my first effort ending up entangling gay-marriage and gun-ownership...

    The modern anti-gunner has been subject (quite successfully) to propaganda which has recast the gun from an amoral instrumentality to an object that is inherently evil. That is the message that sticks with them.

    It is imperative that those of us who understand the notion of self-defense...communicate the philosophical notions that act as foundations for that concept. You must do that FIRST. Only after a person has seen the light regarding their (and others) inalienable human right to live...can that person begin to understand how the gun as a tool can help them protect that right.
     
  11. jabotinsky

    jabotinsky Member

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    You're right.

    But I guess my main point is that as a liberal, I have to wade through a lot of paranoid postings here about dark hordes descending from the cities to pillage the heartland and Hillary and Obama taking away our beloved weaponry and "we know how take care of that in ____ (fill in state)."

    I try to let it all slide, and don't try to convert others. I'm here to learn from others who know more about guns than I. I'm here to get a tip on how to fix a problem or get something better or less expensive, find out the real deal, help a newbie get a fair shake. I'm here because I love the look and smell of metal and wood, the sound of explosions, the smell of oil and smoke, and I connect with people all around the world who share that fascination and it makes me realize what brings us together here is stronger than borders and political parties.
     
  12. MakAttak

    MakAttak Member

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    Excellent. This is what I'm talking about. I have very long discussions with my liberal friends and although I think they're nuts, I still enjoy the discussion (as I hope they do). However, it is our commonalities that allow us to enjoy this.

    The problem is, so many people try to highlight (they call it "celebrate") our differences.

    If you love to shoot, love the smell of gun powder and Hoppes #9, I might think you're crazy on other issues, but hey, I think I'm crazy sometimes.
     
  13. RPCVYemen

    RPCVYemen Member

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    I can agree with that. One of my shooting best shooting buddies usually greets me with, "What's up with your girlfriend, Nancy Pelosi?" And I usually respond with, "How low were the black helicopters flying over your house last night?"

    He's a good guy to shoot with. He in one of those DINK marriages (Double Income No Kids), so he's got a heck of a lot more money to spend on toys. I'm envious, and ask him if he'd like to experience the joy of paying for a year of (private) college for my son, and he always turns me down. :)

    Mike
     
  14. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Foosinho, I said LEADERSHIP.

    That would mean senior members of Congress who are committee chairs, ranking members, speakers, whips, etc.

    The "extreme" anti-gun position predominates in the Democrats with power over the process.

    I didn't say "majority" or "plurality." I said "leadership."
     
  15. Foosinho

    Foosinho Member

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    The vote total is the only thing that matters in the end. Leadership obviously has more influence than some freshman Senator, but "influence" doesn't make a bill into law - votes do.
     
  16. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    No, I won't, thanks. I'm a center- to center-left independent, which is entirely consistent with being an AK owner and CHL holder.

    Actually, for those of you who are pro-RKBA Republicans, keep in mind that if the repubs think that you will always vote them as the "lesser of two evils," they will throw you under the bus, just like George H.W. Bush did. And no gun owner should look at the Bush Administration's proposal to automatically bar anyone on the secret watchlist from owning a gun, with no due process, without shuddering. Not to mention warrantless surveillance, detention without trial, legalized torture, and suspension of habeus corpus, all of which would certainly be used against gun owners if confiscatory bans on "assault weapons" or whatever should happen to pass.

    For the repubs on this board, the only way to keep pro-gun repubs pro-gun is to make it clear that your support for them is contingent on respecting your civil liberties. Right now, the Republican party takes your votes for granted, which is why they would even think of running someone as anti-gun as Mitt Romney or Rudy Guliani.

    On the other side of the coin, the national Democratic party is now coming to realize that there are more Dem and indie gun owners than repub gun owners, that 4 out of 5 gun owners are NOT hunters, and that OUR support for Dem candidates is contingent on said candidates staying the heck out of our gun safes. Hence Jim Webb, Bob Casey, Jon Tester winning Senate seats in '06, Ted Strickland in Ohio, etc. The pendulum is shifting, and a lot of the less fossilized national Dems are getting it.

    Joe Lieberman is quite anti-gun. Webb, Tester, Casey, and others would be better examples.

    Don't forget that most of the northeast states are more pro-gun than many southern states. New Hampshire, for example, is considerably more pro-gun than North Carolina is.

    Since only two states don't have CCW, it is clear that there are other factors at work.

    The states with some of the lowest crime rates in the nation are also CCW states, and Florida's homicide rate was roughly the same as New Jersey's at last count.

    McCain was until relatively recently a (paid?) spokesperson for the gun-control lobby Americans for Gun Safety.

    He was an NRA life member, an "assault weapon" owner (he owned an M1 Garand and an early AR-15, among other things), and supported a high view of the Second Amendment in no uncertain terms.

    Not necessarily to attend their church, but certainly to live by their teachings.

    Sex toys were banned in Alabama not that long ago, and the theocrats are pushing for bans in other states. They are pushing as hard as they can to ban sexual content from the Internet and cable TV, to ban certain magazines from military bases, they are gung-ho for the War on Non-Approved Herbs, have fought civil unions (both homosexual and heterosexual) tooth and nail, are probably behind a good bit of the anti-tobacco and anti-alcohol movements, etc. And don't forget the close connection of some on the religious right to gun control, e.g. William J. Bennett and others.

    I don't see much of an attempt to make us all attend Baptist churches, but there are certainly attempts to make more of us live like Baptists, methinks.

    BTW, I am Christian, but I do not believe that I have been put here on this earth to push other people around via the police power of the state (I am very libertarian in that sense).

    I think Kerry went along with the AWB because (1) he was clueless as to what it covered, and (2) he was clueless about the demographics of U.S. gun ownership in the 21st century. I believe he honestly thought it covered military automatic weapons (inexcusable), and that most gun owners are hunters (also inexcusable). Addressing that kind of ignorance is one thing that we pro-gun Dems and indies are working on. Some people learn more quickly than others.

    Funderb, well said.
     
  17. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    This is not true.

    Cloture matters in the Senate, for example. Process matters at least as much as the vote.

    Cloture is why the AWB was not renewed a couple years ago.
     
  18. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    I really think you're in serious denial.
     
  19. Roswell 1847

    Roswell 1847 member

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    Well my attitudes about sex were formed without any reference to the bible at all. When I was growing up sex and especially homosexuality were never directly mentioned in church aside from hearing the word Fornication on occasion, a word I didn't understand and never bothered to ask about, and since the only definition of Sodomy I'd ever run across was the then current term "Beastiality" I'd always thought that the people of Sodom were getting it on with the livestock rather than each other. That misconception was reinforced by a scene in a sand and sandal Italian movie about Sodom and Gomorah where a guy was smooching a goat that was dolled up in a dress and wearing lipstick and face powder.
    Anyway my attitude towards homosexuality comes from a natural revulsion and the fact that I made straight A's in Biology. I know that the lower intestine is not a sex organ and babies don't fall out of men's rear ends.

    The major anti-tobbaco campaigns of today are almost soley lead by liberals last I heard, though I can remember a few old folks talking about tobacco being the Devil's weed. Religious opposition to smoking had no noticable effect for hundreds of years, only the Surgeon General's warnings and Class Action Suits ever put a dent in tobacco use.

    As for Civil Unions the only scratching and clawing seems to be coming from those who want to toss out the legal definition of Marriage to secure Employer provided health benefits for Gays and Lesbians.
    Since such unions don't produce offspring let them both go out and get a job.


    Now as for anti-Alcohol movements. I guess you haven't taken much notice of the horrendus numbers of victims of drunk driving or the fact that drunken rages result in whole families being murdered, or the number of families torn apart and children abused and sometimes raped or killed by acoholic fathers or mothers.
    The Catholic Church began the AA movement, but had to divorce themselves from it because the seperation of Church and state clause would otherwise prevent Government aid to the organization.
    Religious Leadership in facing and finding cures for social problems requires no apology that I can see.
     
  20. Dr. Peter Venkman

    Dr. Peter Venkman Member

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    Fixed.
     
  21. swingset

    swingset Member

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    You're not a supporter of gun rights if you support the left.

    You might like to shoot, you might think you support the RKBA, but if you vote for a party who in power will most assuredly vote to remove or severely restrict guns in this country, you are the enemy of my basic human rights.

    Sorry if that seems harsh but that's the way I see it.
     
  22. Roswell 1847

    Roswell 1847 member

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    Nope not "fixed" altered to misrepresent my private rant. Post your own rants and let mine remain as posted if you don't mind.

    Might have known.

    My words were.
    It may be lost on some left coasters but the man of the family is the one who works and the wife/ mother stays home if possible to raise the kids.
    Far too many young mothers end up having to get jobs to help make ends meet as it is.
    Why should one male stay at home living off the other's income and depending on that other male's employer to foot the health care costs of someone who doesn't work for them and who has no good excuse for lounging around like Liza Menelli all day.
    Two Men living together should mean two incomes with far fewer expenses than a couple struggling to raise the children who are the future of America and the world.
    Of course that would never occur to you out in la la land.
     
  23. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    Sorry, Oleg

    As much as it pains me to close a thread started by our very own host and the man to whom I answer in moderator matters, this really has drifted too far from the spirit of the original topic.

    It seems all I had to do was observe how well the discussion was going to precipitate the slide over the edge.

    My fault. I should shut up when things are going well.

    Oh, and I'll have you know, you're supposed to open eggs at the BIG end. So there.
     
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