Legal and Prudent defense against Flash Mobs

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Last weekend there were a couple of "flash mob" incidents in Philadelphia. These are iphone/internet organized youth mobs to steal goods and harass/injure citizens.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/2...ade___flee_with_thousands_in_merchandise.html

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/2..._others_hurt_in_Spring_Garden_mob_attack.html


My question is, how do you legally, and prudently defend yourself from these mobs? It could get very ugly, very fast. In addition to my firearm, I have been thinking of carrying pepper spray as well as a less lethal means of defense. I try to avoid the city, especially the bad areas, but sometimes you just can't always avoid due to work, etc.

Thoughts?
 
In Ohio if:
  1. You are reasonably in fear of death or great bodily harm
  2. There is a disparity of numbers or physical ability between you and your assailant(s)
  3. You cannot retreat IN PERFECT SAFETY (That does NOT mean turning your back and running.)
You may use deadly force, in my case a handgun.

Those kinds of attacks are not popular in Ohio and likely will never become popular for the simple reason that people perpetrating them run a substantial risk of being shot. They're popular where there's little or no danger to the perpetrators, Chicago being a prime example. They face virtually no danger from their victims and little danger of arrest by the outnumbered, incompetent police.
 
Flash mob?

I don't reckon we got us none o' them down here Texas way. ;)
 
First thought is RUN like hell.
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To what end? So that I'm too tired to be a danger to them when they inevitably catch up to me?

I was a lousy runner as a 21 year old Infantry 2nd Lieutenant. I'm not one millisecond faster at 53.

I carry a handgun so I don't HAVE to run.

Outside of home or car, the state of Ohio requires me to attempt to withdraw from a confrontation. If you thwart that withdrawal, shame on you. It's a decision you'll regret.
 
I don't reckon we got us none o' them down here Texas way.
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Poor cell coverage? :D

Little or none of it in Ohio either, and probably for identical reasons.

When being a strongarm robber is dangerous for the robber, fewer people want to be one.
 
I mentioned seeing this news coverage in the recent thread called 'Organized Children and Guns" and was quite frankly not surprised today but very disturbed by it and it's implications.
And those of you that dont think this movie is coming to a city near you dont know young teenagers.
This sort of thing gets hashed out over the web and so on and so forth and before long will most likely become somewhat common is my belief.
The greater the number logically means most will escape with stolen goods and they are smart enough to know this along with that mob mentality of the great fun they are having doing all of this against the "rich merchant" that owes it to them for running a store in their neighborhood in the first place.
 
It's a no win situation. If you're surprised and the perps are on you like insects, it would be unlikely that you will be able to draw from that position. If you somehow manage to fight free, it would likely be a problem firing into a mob and around large groups of innocents. If you run, they will give chase and attack like a pack of dogs if you're caught.

I guess, first and foremost would be to avoid the situation altogether. Avoid large crowds, areas where groups of yewts congregate, and be on the alert. I think OC spray works best in these types of situations - fight free and spray in the mob's direction. Firing at the perps in a crowded area would be my very last option.
 
I think OC spray works best in these types of situations - fight free and spray in the mob's direction. Firing at the perps in a crowded area would be my very last option.
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Avoiding is my first priority. My question was if you are put into this situation, what do you do? Location is PA/Philly area.

We now have the Castle Doctrine, so that will help.
 
A mob of kids stealing merchandise? I'm not going to do anything except be a good witness.

Assaulting me and my family? Now things are different.

First thought is RUN like hell.
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I agree, but I have a son who is recovering from ankle surgery, he can't run with me. An 18 year old kid who is already closing on me will most likely catch me in a short distance. I'm in great shape, but snatching up a 65lb loved one and taking off running isn't going to win me any gold medals for speed.

Second thought is shoot the leader. Then run like hell.
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I've seen gangs and groups of kids before, the leader never jumps out of you. I assume you mean to shoot the closest one.

Third? I don't know
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Yeah I'm not sure, either.

I do know that I am legally obliged to use deadly force against someone intent on causing great bodily harm or death to myself or family. But if this person were 13 years old, it would cause a moments pause that could get me in trouble.

It's a no win situation. If you're surprised and the perps are on you like insects, it would be unlikely that you will be able to draw from that position. If you somehow manage to fight free, it would likely be a problem firing into a mob and around large groups of innocents. If you run, they will give chase and attack like a pack of dogs if you're caught.
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I hate to say it, but I agree. Even if I break free of this attack, I have no idea who is innocent and who is the aggressor. I would not be able to fire until I knew where m family was to ensure a safe shot. If 15 people are beating me and I draw a weapon, I stand an extremely high chance of that weapon being taken from me and the situation being further escalated.

Just looking at it mathematically can make you have harsh realizations. This is a mob that is going to over run you and start pounding on you quickly. Lets say you practice often and it takes you 2 seconds to draw and put two in the chest, 1 in the head. You'll likely need between 2 and 5 more seconds to see and process that you are about to be attacked and decide who to shoot. We're at 4 to 7 seconds. The average kid is going to run at you at around 8mph (likely more, I'm much older and can sprint much faster than 8mph) or 11+ feet per second. That means you'll need to be able to see the threat coming between 44 and 77 feet to even consider using a firearm as a course of action.
 
How does one avoid this type of situation??
I mean what we are talking about is a large group of young criminal minded teens who come inside the store you are at shopping in a large group of 10 or15 at once and just start grabbing loot.
Castle Doctrine doesnt totally help here because of the shear numbers.
Just last night on the news a guy approached three other fellows outside in an apartment complex that were drinking beer and talking when the robber pulled his pistol and demanded their money AND beer.
Well,they pounced on him and even though he got of a shot and hit one of his intended victims in the neck, the others pile drived(and I mean pile drived) and held him for the police/ambulance.
Now think if that mob of teens came for you after shooting one of their own...It aint likely you could even come close to stopping them.
 
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You really need to stay focused on self-defense. If they're grabbing loot, let them grab it. You're not store security.

If they're attacking you in a mob and you cannot escape you may well be faced with imminent death and have to respond accordingly. But it's a very dicey situation legally as the places where this nonsense happens are also usually places with very self-defense unfriendly prosecutors and juries. Probably not a coincidence.

Also remember that most flash mobs are more like performance art than a riot. It's only in some places that these have become an excuse to riot.
 
I totally agree with Cosmoline...and pulling a gun on a mob makes you the focus of their probably escalating ire. If you are coming at you with obviously threatening intent its one thing, but CCW is for your safety not the enforcment of property crimes, and robbery without assualt is just that a property crime.
 
I am not concerned with property. This is purely if me and/or my family are physically attacked by the mob.

How do you avoid? Dunno. I have managed to avoid for many years. I don't shop in the city, but I do go there for work and I do take my family to historic sights and other popular areas. My fear is that one of these breaks out in a normally "safe" area where previously you'd have no problems, but now with the technology, the mobs may go where the money and easy pickings are located.

I think I will get a large can of pepper spray to augment the firearm. If they wrestle the spray from me that is not as big a deal, plus the spray is non-lethal, so if I get a bunch of them, its not going to be nearly as severe a legal or moral issue.
 
I think I will get a large can of pepper spray to augment the firearm. If they wrestle the spray from me that is not as big a deal, plus the spray is non-lethal, so if I get a bunch of them, its not going to be nearly as severe a legal or moral issue.
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Keep in mind that you will be spraying everyone in your vicinity when you start spraying, yourself included. You'll have people coughing, spitting and sneezing it all over each other and you. Pepper spray gets messy like that. There is no way you could hose down 15 people and not get any on you unless they stand still in a neat little line at 15 feet. :)
 
ForumSurfer

Keep in mind that you will be spraying everyone in your vicinity when you start spraying, yourself included. You'll have people coughing, spitting and sneezing it all over each other and you. Pepper spray gets messy like that. There is no way you could hose down 15 people and not get any on you unless they stand still in a neat little line at 15 feet.
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It will break-up the beating/looting. Still a lot better than shooting & missing and hitting an unintended person.
 
Onward Allusion said:
It will break-up the beating/looting.
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Maybe, maybe not. I've seen incidents where the group beating continued despite pepper spraying the crowd at a couple of concerts I went to as a teen. It sure beats nothing, though! It is much easier to run away partially blinded than to try and assault someone blindly.

In the looting scenario, I'm still not doing anything including less than lethal intervention. That is the store's problem, not mine. :)

Onward Allusion said:
Still a lot better than shooting & missing and hitting an unintended person.
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Agree %110.
 
I don't know what the self defense laws are in your state. In is legal to use lethal force if you are in such a situation that you are in fear of your physical safety and the perpetrator is not responding to your warning or time doesn't allow for a warning. The Castle Doctrin is in part what I am refering to, but additionally our state has added to this law with additional refrence to self defense situations in that, the burden of proof is on law enforcement, rather than the victim.
 
When did the word become subverted to such a radical change of meaning?
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When the "flash mobs" started showing up in the Chicago area for the purpose of robbing & beating people. Sad world we live in.
 
I was in Boston and a flash mob of zombies ran through the mall downtown. Scared the tourists. Glad it wasn't in TX, somebody would have thought it was really zombies and started a gun fight.

Anyway, who thinks they can fire into a crowd and hit the correct actors. Unless, someone is actually beating someone, nailing a kid in the periphery of the action, will probably send you to jail.

At a match yesterday, I saw holes in the good guy targets and I missed a mandated head shot and that 45 round would have went somewhere. Just grazed the target. Bah.

On a swinging mover with six rounds, on the average folks were getting 4 rounds in it.
 
On the topic of these sing/dance flash mobs. I've always had a bad feeling about them in my gut.

The latest violent flash mobs happening all over the country recently is the reason. For all intents and purposes all of these flash mobs you see on YouTube, etc... are all displaying what CAN be done with the utilization of social networking sites like Facebook, Twitter, etc. It was only a matter of time until these flash mobs, as so dubiously named, turned into just that - dubious.

You guys see the near riots that broke out at a few beaches over Memorial Day weekend? I was reading a popular portal news site and the top 5 headlines were all about this. Now this past week there was one actually in Chicago, in Peoria Illinois... and then these in Philadelphia on Saturday.

Its going to continue to spread, mark my words... I too have been debating how I would possibly conduct myself and protect my family when put into a situation like this.
 
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