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Legal? - Took potential school shooters parents guns for safekeeping

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Aim1, Oct 26, 2022.

  1. ColoradoMinuteMan

    ColoradoMinuteMan Member

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    I hear you, and in principle it’s the same effect as clarifying the law, but my rudimentary understanding is that really executive orders are instructions to the executive branch of government that instruct them how to do their job. Since law enforcement is under the jurisdiction of the executive branch, an executive order can inform various agencies how to go about enforcement of laws, even illegally, if the Judicial and Legislative branches are unwilling to challenge it. Unfortunately the Judicial process can be quite challenging, slow and expensive to navigate, which enables the Executive branch to operate illegally, often for many years or decades until the right circumstances are in place to stop the illegal enforcement of “law.”

     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  2. kwguy

    kwguy Member

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    Why stop at guns?
     
  3. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Interesting concepts. The court has to balance 4A rights of the parents against unlawful search and seizure and their lesser 2A right to bear arms (lesser only because the court has not accorded it as being of equal importance as the First, Fourth or Fifth) against the state's interest to prevent murder. Fourth Amendment violations will come under the highest court standards (strict scrutiny) but the police entry was gained under a warrant. Additionally, the court has held that the police has no specific duty to protect any individual against harm but there's also a collateral issue of the schools to prevent harm to its pupils.

    Issue 1): Was the seizure of the parent's arms a violation of their 4th rights?
    Issue 2): Do the parent's right to keep and bear arms outweigh state's interest to prevent murder?

    I would have to do research at a law library to determine the answer, but I'm not an attorney and am too lazy.
     
  4. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    upload_2022-10-30_9-51-52.png

    Picture of the guns taken. Same article said the guns were taken for "safe keeping".

    Same day as this, 3 were killed in a school shooting in Missouri. Could be the reason the cops were so cautious.

    Again, we have been given virtually no information about this incident, and I have looked extensively. We don't know if the guns were given up voluntarily, if they were not stored properly, or if there was someone in the house that is prohibited from possession of firearms. We don't know if the cops over reacted or if they stepped over the line. Only thing we do know for sure, is that a possible and viable threat was eliminated.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  5. Styx

    Styx Member

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    Good thing too. If the kids committed a mass school shooting with a Assault Bolt Rifle, Californian and the rest of the country could be at risk of a ABR ban.

    If it were me, I'd be pissed. I am perfectly capable of securing my own firearms. I didn't commit a crime and my firearms weren't used in a crime, so they have no right touching them let alone taking pictures and releasing them to the press.

    My car keys aren't locked in a safe nor are matches, lighter, lighting fluid, gasoline, knives, etc. If my child threadened a mass stabbing, are they going to come and take all my knives? If he threadened to burn down the school with everyone in it, are they going to come and remove all any and everything flammable? If he threadened to run everyone over, are they going to tow away my car?

    I am going to tell them to leave my firearms and to remove themselves and idiot son from my house until it's all sorted out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2022
  6. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    But this isn't you and odds are, all the chest pounding and talking tough would make for diddly-squat, if it was you. If they come with a search warrant looking for weapons, are you going to barricade yourself in your house? You think will work out for you? Or do you think they will just politely leave when you order them to?

    If you had kids or grandkids attending that school, would you rather they send the kid making the threat home with just a slap on the wrist, thinking they are going to change overnight? If you remember, that's what they did at the Oxford High School in Michigan. How did that work out? ....and those parents? Their resistance to accepting the threats their son made, means they will be both prosecuted for 4 counts of manslaughter. As a parent, you are still responsible for the actions of your idiot, juvenile son., regardless of what you order the cops to do.
     
    RetiredUSNChief and bdickens like this.
  7. Styx

    Styx Member

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    Whether they leave or stay, I will protest, video record, file complaints, and file lawsuits.

    I rather they hold my son legally accountable for breaking the law, keep him in custody, and then to contact me so the necessary next steps can be discussed.

    As a parent, I maybe held liable financially for my children's actions, but I am not going to be held criminally responsible for their actions unless there is proof that I am somehow culpable aka I knew about the threats and did nothing, I allowed them to have access to my firearms knowing they were a danger to themselves and others, etc. In the Oxford High School case, there was proof that the parents should have known ahead of time that their child was a danger, and they did nothing to stop it.

    I don't need law enforcement or government stealing my firearms and posting what all I own and have nationally when I broke no laws and am not a danger to anyone. I don't need them leaving me and my home defenseless either. I am more than capable of securing my own firearms. Until I break a law or they have proof that I am illegally allowing access of my firearms to my child, they should not have the right to confiscate my property.
     
    Demi-human, RetiredUSNChief and kwguy like this.
  8. kwguy

    kwguy Member

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    This is the very essence of the “slippery slope”. The mantra of “if it saves just one life” can be used as a huge oppressive force. Plenty of things can be made legal. Just because something has been deemed legal doesn’t make it right. Plenty of oppressive and destructive things in history were legal.
     
  9. Rshooter

    Rshooter Member

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    I have a gunsafe and if my grandchild made such a threat I would not open the safe without a court order. I would request a full accounting and pictures of the weapons and if they appeared on TV I would not be happy. We are losing our second amendment rights slowly but surely.
     
  10. Styx

    Styx Member

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    It's in large part because of gun owners being okay with giving up rights and/or staying silent for what they perceive to be the the greater good. You see examples of that in this very thread.
     
  11. Will Munny

    Will Munny Member

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    Ultimately it does not matter if it is legal or not. The rule of law is dead. They might sue, they probabally won't win, and even if they do half the states will just ignore it anyway.

    They key here is the following.
    Raise your kids better.
    Refuse any search without a warrant.
    The better you hide your things the better.

    Maybe a lawyer can answer me this...suppose they had a big safe and it was locked. What happens if they refuse to provide the code? Do the cops just arrest them and haul them off, or do they get a safe cracker to open it?
     
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  12. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    ^^^ I totally agree. Not only raise your kids right, but get to know them, so you know when "things just ain't right" with them.

    ^^^Good luck with that, especially with things as large as long guns. The more you have the harder that will be. But do the above and store them correctly and you won't have to "hide" them.

    I am not a lawyer, but I do research gun law. From what I understand it depends on the warrant. A warrant that specifies they are looking for guns, generally means they have the right to search anything large enough to contain a firearm....so a Gun Safe would be a prime target. If they find something that is not specified in the warrant, while still in the process of searching your home they can call in for another warrant or to have the warrant they have expanded to include a gun safe.

    But again, with the minimal amount of actual facts that have been provided to us, we ain't got a clue as to what really went down.
     
    Demi-human and RetiredUSNChief like this.
  13. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    If a teenager threatens to shoot up a school, the kid is what needs to be removed.

    Any of mine ever said that, they'd find themselves in residential psychiatric care or military school.
     
    Big Bore 44 and RetiredUSNChief like this.
  14. dekibg

    dekibg Member

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    I totally agree with you. Much better to act on a small number of extreme cases like this one , than “thoughts and prayers” later
     
  15. ColoradoMinuteMan

    ColoradoMinuteMan Member

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    You’re telling me that you’d ok with law enforcement making decisions on how they conduct their law enforcement based upon the emotions brought about by unrelated cases, rather than by following the appropriate protocol for the actual case being pursued?

    Also, you say we don’t know anything about anything, and we’re just making all sorts of suppositions, but can you tell me how we know that a viable threat was eliminated? How is everything else observed assumption, but this observation a known fact?
     
  16. ColoradoMinuteMan

    ColoradoMinuteMan Member

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    Everyone here agrees that the threat should be investigated and stopped. That isn’t a point of contention. The questions being asked are 1. Do we know on what grounds the firearms were removed from the parents custody 2. was under lawful grounds 3. We wonder under what circumstances there was a need to confiscate the firearms being that once the kid was in custody, it would seem the threat has been neutralized.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2022
  17. Will Munny

    Will Munny Member

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    Its worth putting in the effort. The only true security is something too hidden to be found.
     
  18. Sniper66

    Sniper66 Member

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    So...they take the guns for "safe-keeping"? Whose guns and for how long? A week or two until the family can arrange off site storage or until the pD decides it's OK? One guess. If the family buys a gun safe...(maybe they already had one)...do you get your guns back? If idiot child plays with the neighbor kids, do you take their guns for "safe-keeping too? Do you deprive other family members of hunting until they return the confiscated property? So, it's OK to unconstitutionally end a families's ability to protect themselves while the court or PD decide what they think is best? Here is your slippery slope in clear view.
     
  19. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    While I have no doubt that you are, the courts have to be convinced that the parents are and that the kids don't have bypass information, like where daddy wrote down the combination to the safe.

    Years ago, my kids were able to brute force figure out the 5 digit pass code to unlock HBO. I have no doubt kids can with some free time would be able to brute force hack an electronic safe. Kids are like prisoners in prison. When the parents/guards aren't around, they have nothing but time.
     
  20. ColoradoMinuteMan

    ColoradoMinuteMan Member

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    So maybe we should all keep our guns at the local armory, all safely locked up by the government until such time that our written request to access them is approved? Just to be safe…
     
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  21. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    LOL, just explaining why the 'safely secured' guns may not be considered safely secured from the children, roommates, etc., which for in this case is who the guns may need to be secured from.
     
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  22. Smaug

    Smaug Member

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    The problem is that it was a credible threat and also that even if they WERE secured, it doesn't mean the little bastard doesn't know where the key is.

    Hopefully, that family doesn't need a gun while the bureaucracy plays out. The kid will likely go to a psych, the parents coached and the guns returned. Too bad we'll never know the full story.
     
  23. Styx

    Styx Member

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    Doesn't matter, and the same can be said for felons who are married or have roommates who own guns. Everyone else in the home 2nd and 4th Ammendment rights' do not just disappear because a felon, suicidal, or other alleged threat lives in the home.

    Question: Using the same logic and train of thought that a child can bypass a gun safe, what if the kid said he was going to use his next door neighbor's gun? Surely if children can get into a safe, they can get past the lock on the neighbor's door or simply break a window. You both think the neighbor's firearms should be taken too?

    Plus, it's not the child's property, the firearms weren't used in a crime, and the parents committed no crime. There is no reason why their property should be confiscated.

    First and foremost, if after a hearing, the child is still deamed to be an imminent threat, he shouldn't be released back to the parents in the first place. There's more than one way to kill people and even get a gun if one is determined enough. What should happen is on condition of release, a judge or magistrate can add stipulations that the child is not to be the home with firearms, firearms must be locked up, or something similar. If those conditions aren't met, then the child should be put back in jail or removed from the home and/or the parents charged with violating a court order. Going in into their home, confiscating their firearms, and then posting pictures of what they took is highly inappropriate and unconstitutional IMHO.

    You're way of thinking is along the same train of thought that anti-gun and progun control side has. They think that public safety concerns trumps the Constitution. "It's the moral and common sense thing to do to save lives!" That they can outright violate super majority's 2A rights, for example, because of the threat the minority allegedly pose. That's not the way it is supposed to work.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
  24. Basura Blanca

    Basura Blanca Member

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    In California, anyone in education already is. That addition was put into effect a couple years back but apparently it isn't being utilized at all. Its application is very limited anyway.

    But as someone who works with kids, I'm already required to report suspected abuse and suspected abuse is a very broad item. It's also not uncommon for kids who do tell me something which initiates such reporting to also mention something about guns at home. Not taking these things seriously would be criminally negligent since that's the essence of a mandated reporter. It's also why we're afforded absolute immunity for making those reports.

    Kids say stuff like in the OP's story all the time. It's not up to me to figure out how serious or not they are.
     
  25. Hal

    Hal Member

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    Of course everyone in education in Ca is involved - we have a 3 plus page long discussion about it right here.
    Kid made threats - parents lost guns.
    100% legal.

    Why?

    Red flag laws. Coming soon to a community around you - if the anti-gun people have their way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2022
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