legality of loaning

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Blarelli, Sep 30, 2010.

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  1. Blarelli

    Blarelli Member

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    My little sister is 20 years old and lives with my grandpa and my aunt, and today some guy scammed his way into the house to look around claiming they had won free carpet cleaning. He was asking about when people were home, and stuff like that. I think they were being scoured for a burglary, and the cops agree. My question is what can I legally lend to my sister? It's either a .40 pistol or an AK. She can legally buy the AK, but not the pistol. Another variable is my aunt. She is schizophrenic, and I don't know how that affectation things.
     
  2. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Wait a minute.... got to verify something...

    OK.... back to my original answer:

    You can loan your sister either gun. If your sister is a same-state resident as you, you could sell or give her either gun (in Utah). I would recommend the pistol, AFTER you teach her how to use it AND she demonstrates safe handling and ability at a gun range. Less likely there will be collateral damage with the pistol.

    IF your aunt was ever INVOLUNTARILY committed to a mental institution, she is a prohibited person. It would not do any good to loan a firearm to your sister living with your aunt because she would have to keep the gun locked up so that your aunt could not gain access to the gun. This would prevent it's effective use in a self defense situation anyway.

    All the legalities aside, I would very carefully consider loaning your sister a gun.
     
  3. Blarelli

    Blarelli Member

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    She was never committed but she was ordered to take medication, and my dad has power of attorney. Would my sister have to legally keep it locked up?
     
  4. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    If she has ever "(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;" then yes, the gun must be locked up so the aunt cannot gain access to it. I would say court ordered to take medication and if the court ordered the power of attorney, then your aunt was adjudicated as a mental defective.
     
  5. brboyer

    brboyer Member

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    Not strictly accurate. No requirement for it to be "Locked up", the prohibited person simply cannot possess it, either actually or constructively. Carry on the sister's person, for example.


    Also, be aware of vicarious liability.
     
  6. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    That's true. It would be illegal, however, for the sister to keep it in her purse and then leave the purse unattended in the house (which would not be on her person.)
     
  7. srgvaz

    srgvaz Member

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    --Would my sister have to legally keep it locked up?--

    Is that a trick question? The person in possession and the person it's registered to are responsible for having the gun secured.
     
  8. brboyer

    brboyer Member

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    No, it would be illegal for the prohibited person to have access (constructive possession) to the firearm. In the above situation, no crime committed by the sister. Not smart, but not illegal.
     
  9. brboyer

    brboyer Member

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    Incorrect.

    The prohibited person is the responsible party.
     
  10. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    So, brboyer, is what you are saying is that if I have a wife who is a prohibited person, I can keep my gun anywhere I want to in the house, and it does not matter if she has access to it?
     
  11. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    OK.... so.... your sister does not have to keep the gun locked up. But here is what could happen to the aunt if she doesn't:

    http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2010/jan/06/closing-arguments-heard-case-unlawful-firearm-poss/#ixzz0cK1irNSd

     
  12. brboyer

    brboyer Member

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    Depends on how much you like her and enjoy having around, but yes, it is perfectly legal for you to do so.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2010
  13. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    AFAIK, Utah does not have gun registration.

    The real world (regarding guns) is not like it seems on TV.

    In the free states, after the first sale, guns are treated pretty much as commodities like a toaster or fridge, with the exception that you don't give/trade/loan/sell to prohibited persons (which is a federal law).
     
  14. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    Yes, except for when the person has been adjudicated mentally defective, ie- incapable of taking responsibility. At that point, the persons who have been given responsibility to care for the person, in this case the sister and father, become (or remain) the responsible parties.
     
  15. AIM

    AIM Member

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    Have you considered a safer less lethal alternative that might be better around the Aunt? Pepper spray, Taser...
     
  16. AirForceShooter

    AirForceShooter Member

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    It's your sister and you're worrying over nothing.
    Keep her safe.
    Give her the gun.

    AFS
     
  17. alexp

    alexp Member

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    Prohibited persons

    Interesed I found this on google

    Clarification of prohibited persons
    The older Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibits firearms ownership in the US by certain broad categories of individuals thought to pose a threat to public safety. However, this list differed between the US House of Representatives and the US Senate versions of the bill, and led to great confusion. This list was later augmented, modified, and clarified in the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. The 1986 list is:

    Anyone who has been convicted in any court of, a felony punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, excluding those crimes punishable by imprisonment related to the regulation of business practices.

    Anyone who is a fugitive from justice.

    Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.

    Anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.

    Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa. The exception is if the nonimmigrant is in possession of a valid hunting license issued by a US state.

    Anyone who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.

    Anyone who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship.

    Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner. (Added in 1996, with the Lautenberg Amendment.)

    Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. (Added in 1996, with the Lautenberg Amendment)[7]

    A person who is under indictment or information for a crime (misdemeanor) punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding two years cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information, and if cleared or acquitted can receive firearms without restriction
     
  18. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    At the expense of other family members who may get a felony conviction for being a prohibited person in possession of a firearm? The police have already been involved in this house. If they return for some reason and find the gun and the aunt together in the house, there is going to be problems if they find out the aunt was adjudicated as a mental defective.
     
  19. Lucky Derby

    Lucky Derby Member

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    What about a quick access style lock box?
    Not as handy as under a pillow, etc, but a lot quicker than in a regular safe with a trigger lock.
     
  20. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    A. Is your sister trained to use a gun safely and under pressure?
    B. Does she have a mind-set that would allow her to pop a cap on someone in her home without a moments hesitation?
    C. Or, would she rather keep backing up and pleading with the BG until he took the gun away from her and used it on everyone in the house?

    If you answered No, No, Yes to those three questions, she would be better off with an industrial-sized can of pepper Bear spray.

    And so would the Aunty on meds!

    rc
     
  21. 52grain

    52grain Member

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    What about something like a baseball bat, pepper spray, mace, etc? If your sister is new to guns, one of these may be a better option and may raise fewer issues related to your Aunt.
     
  22. alexp

    alexp Member

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    Other Option

    I haven't seen any mention of a guard dog. A companion for Auntie and protection rolled up in one four legged package. In addition get an alarm system with pendant activation.
     
  23. 52grain

    52grain Member

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    Provided that it is practical to care for the animal, there is adequate room, no one's allergic, etc, that may actually be a good idea.
     
  24. ClarkKentAKASuperman

    ClarkKentAKASuperman member

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    I'd say if at all, loan her the hand gun and tell her to make sure it's kept on her person or in a quick access handgun safe, and above all else, not to mention anything about it to the police if they were to be called to the house again...unless of course they were called again because she shot and killed a BG who broke in, but in that case it would be the old "would you rather be alive and possibly fighting a bogus gun charge or dead because you were afraid of breaking the law? I'll take alive, thank you.
     
  25. alexp

    alexp Member

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    Original Question

    Legality of Loaning.

    Title 18 USCS 922 (a)(5)(B): Title 18 USCS 922(b)(2)(B) is the law

    27 CFR 478.30(b); 27 CFR 478.97: 27 CFR 478.99 (a)(2) are the regulations implementing the law
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2010
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