Lehigh Xtreme bullets

[westernrover]

I know Lehigh handgun bullets have been discussed previously. With Bill Wilson's purchase of Lehigh, more hype is coming out about them and I'm still trying to figure them out.



Let me state up front that I've use copper monolithics (not Lehigh yet) for hunting, and I have no doubts about the performance of this type of bullet and I believe Lehigh has some outstanding expanding and fracturing rifle bullets available for various types of game. Non-expanding handgun bullets are different, and testing them for defensive purposes is not the same as or nearly as practical as hunting.

The most widely accepted defensive handgun bullet performance standard is based on expanding hollowpoints. The Xtreme Defense bullets would likely meet the penetration standard, but they don't expand. Relieving ourselves of the necessity to make a bullet both expand and penetrate is appealing if it can be done with comparable effectiveness, but nobody would just suppose ball ammo would perform as well as hollowpoints.

In the second video, we see plywood stopping hollowpoint expansion. Fair enough. A lot of things can cause hollowpoints to fail to expand. The Xtreme Defense bullet doesn't expand either. So it seems to be just as bad as an unexpanded hollowpoint, except that it doesn't over-penetrate. Wouldn't a wimp-weight 90 grain ball round also penetrate less than a 124 grain +P hollowpoint that is prevented from expanding?

What is the evidence that the supposed hydraulic effect of the flutes on these bullets add anything to terminal effectiveness? The second video above shows none and the demonstrator in the video even notes that the effect on the gel block is about the same.



This last video attempts to demonstrate the effect of the flutes. What it shows is the fluted bullet being slowed and stopped within a 20" gel block, and the non-fluted bullet of equivalent weight, design, and parameters penetrating more than 40" of gel and exiting.

The flutes apparently limit penetration. Do the fluted bullets wound more than another bullet design that penetrates an equal depth? What about a wadcutter that we loaded to a low enough velocity to achieve equal penetration? The Xtreme Defense demonstrator talked about "energy transfer." A lower velocity wadcutter would transfer less energy. Is energy transfer a meaningful theory of wound ballistics?

If the wound channel is primarily a function of meplat diameter with velocity adding a small amount, wouldn't an expanded hollowpoint have a larger wound channel? And if it failed to expand due to a barrier, wouldn't it still wound at least as well as an Xtreme bullet?

 

[westernrover]

In this video, Andrew experiments to determine if the flutes do anything different than a similar non-fluted bullet by loading the same bullet backwards. His results could be compared to the third Lehigh video I posted above where the manufacturer produced a comparable bullet without flutes. Andrew is impressed by a notably larger disruption in the gel, but he also recognizes that gel is not a meaningful medium for wound simulation.


A meat test (but not the meat test).

If we cannot expect spectacular performance from any handgun ammo, what can we do to have it perform as best as possible?

• Have it start out a big caliber? but take up more space in the gun and recoil more for the necessary penetration?
• Have it expand big under ideal conditions? but possibly expand and penetrate variably under other conditions?
• Have it penetrate a consistent and appropriate amount in both favorable and adverse conditions?
• Have it dump or transfer more energy into the target?
• Ensure it makes an exit wound?
• Tear more gel but doubtfully vital tissues and organs?
• Sonic pressure waves for remote neural damage?

How about it's in-stock and affordable enough we can function test our firearm? Well, I shoot a revolver, so I'm relieved of this to be more concerned about terminal effect.

No doubt affordable ammo is important for practice for the all-important shot placement, but we only need something of a similar recoil level and reasonably close trajectory, so i won't fault a defensive bullet for costing a couple bucks a piece.

 

[JTQ]

I've followed a guy's journey on another forum as he searched for the best, for him, handgun for bear country. He went through all the various big revolvers, but found them heavy and lacking capacity. He went through a few semi-autos (he's a Glock fan), but found many wouldn't reliably cycle rounds that would typically expect to be effective on large bears. He eventually settled on the HK USP in .45 Auto, but was shooting .45 Super out of the gun. The USP wasn't as shootable as his preferred Glock's, but functioned better with heavy, bear defense type ammo than the Glock's did.

His discovery of the Lehigh bullets changed his calculations a bit as he found these bullets could smash through heavy bone fairly reliably, even in smaller calibers. I think he now often carries a Gen 5 G22/G23 (he prefers Glock's but had feeding problems with other appropriate for bear rounds) loaded with Lehigh bullets. He's found these rounds feed well through his autos and provide the terminal performance he desires.

 

[westernrover]

Bill Wilson has obviously literally bought into the Lehigh bullets. Mas was not carrying them more recently than the video, but he was carrying Winchester Ranger T (9mm). In another video earlier this year where they show their EDC, Bill was carrying the Lehigh, but Ken Hackathorn was carrying Hornady Critical Duty.

I find myself like Andrew (from TFB), not convinced yet, but increasingly surprised these things haven't been found out to be a gimmick and faded out in failure. They've really been around for a while now and there are a growing number of test results and evidence that they aren't awful compared to conventional JHP. I haven't seen evidence that they're amazingly spectacular either, so more than anything this makes me realize that hollowpoints aren't as great as I must have been thinking.

For decades now, there has been consensus that hollowpoint handgun bullets provide better wounding and more stopping power than ball ammo or lead round nose bullets. For as much time we've struggled to get hollowpoints to consistently expand without failures to expand because of things like insufficient velocity for the bullet design, and simultaneously to penetrate adequately. We've had to balance expansion with penetration and as a result we've determined which cartridges are viable -- 9x19mm, but 380's and many traditional 32's not so much -- and come up with bullet designs for the viable cartridges (9, 40, 45) that achieve the desired balance. But this balance can be upset by barriers like plywood, sheet-metal, drywall, and possibly even some clothing. It's a delicate balance that notably failed in the Winchester Silvertip of the '86 Miami shootout that ultimately resulted in giving us the 40 S&W which has since fallen out of favor mostly for the other benefits of 9mm but also with the justification that we've got the 9mm hollowpoint bullet figured out now.

To what degree does the handgun hollowpoint contribute to wounding and stopping power and to what degree does it simply control penetration? If it primarily limits penetration, don't these Xtreme Defenders appear to be a more dependable way to do that? I'd like to see a given bullet's penetration at a wide range of velocities. With hollowpoints we have to load them to sufficient velocity to cause hollowpoint expansion for the given bullet design, but we don't want excess velocity because it may overexpand the bullet and reduce penetration or to achieve that it may exceed the capabilities of the cartridge capacity, the barrel length, and also cause excess recoil etc. So what are the parameters around these Xtreme bullets? If we don't have to regard expansion, how do we achieve the desired penetration? Can we do it with shorter barrels? less recoil? Different cartridges than the widely-accepted hollowpoint receptacles?

 

[murf]

paul harrell ran the 9mm xtreme defender through the meat target:

i carry the 90 grain defender ammo in my g19 for ccw.

murf

 

[DustyGmt]

I believe we have a few people here who like to carry them as their "nature walk load" in their 10mm's and such because of their ability to penetrate deep. I would carry them in this application as well, and I also like them in small pistols like .380's

 

[WYO]

I really see no benefit to the Xtreme Defender/Penetrator bullets for use in self-defense against people in duty calibers. The ammo companies and FBI have gone through a lot of testing and correlated them against real shooting data and have come up with ammo that works against a multitude of barriers and still performs well without under- or over-penetration. I don’t see any rigorous data or testing to convince me that Lehigh tipped ammo is better than, or even equal to, what the major companies already are producing for defense against people. The only reason I carry Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators or hard cast ammo in duty calibers is for defense against charging big critters where I want the ammo to break bones and penetrate as deeply as possible. (The same would go for 10mm, but I don’t have one.)

The .380 is a different story. Because it is expansion and penetration challenged, even the Xtreme Penetrator does not overpenetrate against gel, yet it will break through barriers better than .380 hollowpoints. I think the Xtreme Penetrator is a better mousetrap in that caliber.

Unfortunately, since Wilson acquired Lehigh, the company is no longer offering loaded ammo at this time. So, you either have to shoot handloads or go to a company that is loading them commercially, such as Underwood.

 

[murf]

bill wilson got it done:

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Lehigh-Defense-Ammo/products/1535/

murf

 

[dweis]

I researched the fluted bullets’ ballistics very thoroughly over a two year span as new tests results appeared on YouTube. Before I get into details about what I learned I want to clear up one thing. The OP cited “supposed hydraulic effect.” Hydraulic effect wound damage is generally limited to rifle cartridges that reach much higher velocities than handgun ammo. The fluted bullets do their damage by fluid transfer. The high rate of spin of the bullet gives the flutes something like a propeller effect. A propeller pushes water into a stream that propels the craft. So it is turning fluid into a physical force. The propeller is shaped to control the the direction of the water force — fore or aft.

The fluted bullet is shaped to move fluid the 360 degrees around the bullet. Since the body is mostly water our tissues and organs will expel the water (and blood too) when struck with traumatic force. We all now that water pressure can do create damage when it reaches a certain point atbwhich the resisting barrier will be overcome. That is true in the organs and tissue. The fluted bullet is actually using water pressure to destroy tissue to make a wound cavity. There is abundant evidence that it works. It can make wound cavities that equal or exceed those of hollow points.

I have seen an autopsy on a feral pig that was shot through the shoulder with a 9mm Underwood Extreme Defender round at close range. The bullet blasted through the shoulder and demolished it. It continued through the pig and hit the other shoulder fracturing it. Penetration ended in that shoulder joint. The wound cavity in the tissue between the shoulders was turned into a gelatinous mess. The tissue was simply like jelly. That video was on YouTube. It was quickly removed because YouTube is adverse to showing such things.

I loaded my LCPII with Underwood Extreme Penetrator because it has proven to do more damage than JHP. Those results are on YT. The round eliminated concerns about expansion and under penetration with 380 ACP. I carry that round in 9mm when when hiking in forested land. It would certainly damage a black bear especially with a few hits.

The other benefit of the Extreme bullets is that they a not affected by barriers like hollow points are. They do the same amount of damage as they would have had there been no barrier. Military Arms Channel on YT has video showing the bullets effectiveness with and without barriers.

I was considering using 9mm Extreme Defender as my EDC ammo. It has less penetration that the deep penetrating Extreme Penetrator round. I decided to stick with my Federal HST. My reason for that was simple. I subscribe to the the belief that it is best to train with the same ammo you use for self defense. I also do see low probability of needing extreme barrier penetration. The cost of the Extreme ammo is quite a bit higher that that of JHP. I decided it would be too expensive to follow my training belief. When it came to the 380 I spent the extra money because I had too little confidence in that caliber for self defense. I do not have that feeling about 9mm. However, If cost were no object I would carry and train with Extreme Defender in 9mm. Maybes witch my soon to be received 8.7% increase in Social Security I will make the switch in 2023.

 

[JTQ]

Similar rounds from Black Hills Ammo, the Honey Badger line http://www.black-hills.com/product-category/honeybadger/

 

[Shivahasagun]

Good load from my Beretta 81FS w/.380 barrel.

The Underwood 68 gr +p load averaged 1405 fps from my gun. No malfunctions in 40 rds. Shoots high just like everything else from this gun.

Recoil is more than ball, but slightly less than than Underwoods 90 gr XTP +p. The cases looked fine after firing.

 

[DTL]

With HP ammunition being illegal in NJ for carry, I've been pleased with the Underwood 90 gr.+p Xtreme Defender in my Shield Plus, and the .380 90gr. Extreme Penetrator in my Bersa Thunder & Ruger LCPII.

 

[crestoncowboy]

With HP ammunition being illegal in NJ for carry, I've been pleased with the Underwood 90 gr.+p Xtreme Defender in my Shield Plus, and the .380 90gr. Extreme Penetrator in my Bersa Thunder & Ruger LCPII.

I'm happy with HP in my SD and cast or xtp in my hunting guns.... but certainly would carry the Lehigh over ball if HP was illegal.

 

[DMW1116]

I just like them because they’re more accurate out of my Shield and M&P9 than anything else I’ve tried. I use the 90 grain Extreme Defenders and CFE Pistol.

 

[murf]

a new video from alaska:

100 grains @ 2000 fps out of a handgun?

just an fyi,

murf

 

[Shawn Dodson]

...The fluted bullet is actually using water pressure to destroy tissue to make a wound cavity.

No.

The ridges cut soft tissues as the bullet penetrates, which weakens the tissues, and the flutes propel soft tissues radially away from the wound track to create a temporary cavity that has the potential to tear open the cuts, depending on the particular tissues involved.

It's that simple.

 

[murf]

No.

The ridges cut soft tissues as the bullet penetrates, which weakens the tissues, and the flutes propel soft tissues radially away from the wound track to create a temporary cavity that has the potential to tear open the cuts, depending on the particular tissues involved.

It's that simple.

agree with everything, but it is obvious the bullet creates a permanent cavity as well.

murf

 

[crestoncowboy]

No.

The ridges cut soft tissues as the bullet penetrates, which weakens the tissues, and the flutes propel soft tissues radially away from the wound track to create a temporary cavity that has the potential to tear open the cuts, depending on the particular tissues involved.

It's that simple.

but their advertising has said otherwise. I read an article a while back that absolutely said water pressure. It also compared the fluted bullet to a propeller on a boat in water because of the rifling and spin of the bullet. And forcing the water and soft tissue away. It even went in depth about how much water is in the body.

It also used the word "jelly" to describe the wound channel in a game animal.

That article/ commercial and their wording turned me against the bullets. Lol. Reminded me of those "extreme anti terrorist rounds" they sold for 9mm and 40 years ago.

 

[Kleanbore]

The high rate of spin of the bullet gives the flutes something like a propeller effect.

Really? When the bullet turns once in sixteen inches?

That article/ commercial and their wording turned me against the bullets

I would not want it described in court.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Really? When the bullet turns once in sixteen inches?

I would not want it described in court.

Well in all fairness it didn't say how fast the boat was.... but it sure did talk about water pressure. Mentioning a boat propeller and a pressure washer.

And it wasn't a YouTube deltaseal operator either. It was a decent publication so I assumed it was info from the actual lehigh makers. Maybe not though. Maybe a writer took some liberties. Idk. Lol.

But don't be surprised if you hear those type claims. They aren't made up by the folks saying it. Lol. They probably read it

 

[westernrover]

Really? When the bullet turns once in sixteen inches?

I would not want it described in court.

I was thinking about that. My revolver has a 1:16 twist rate and I've seen the super slow-mo video of the Xtreme Defender in gel. We can even see the rotation or spiraling of the disrupted gel after it comes to rest. I don't think the rotational force is very dramatic. But then, I calculated at 1000 fps, the bullet is going 12000 inches per second, and 720000 inches per minute. If it rotates once in 16 inches, it's rotating at 45,000 RPM!

45,000 RPM might sound dramatic, but that's only because we're accustomed to imagining a tool working at that speed for several seconds. The bullet enters the tissue at 45,000 RPM, but because this "blender" is only running for 0.001 seconds as it passes through 16 inches of tissue, it only spins once. I haven't accounted for the deceleration in the tissue, but it suffices that the rotational effect is inconsequential.

 

[Kleanbore]

but it sure did talk about water pressure. Mentioning a boat propeller and a pressure washer.....But don't be surprised if you hear those type claims.

The hoopla reminds me of a brand of .30 Cal boat-tail jacketed rifle bullets that had a Coke bottle shape--a 'pinched' waste. The ads claimed that the principle was the same as the way supersonic aircraft worked--it would reduce drag.

What thos people dis not point out is that the shape of an airplane fuselage was intended to keep the total cross secional area constant, by making the fuselage smallest where the wingspan was widest--something called the "area rule".

It was useless on something that did not have wings.

 

[westernrover]

a new video from alaska:

100 grains @ 2000 fps out of a handgun?

just an fyi,

murf

Lifetime tables. They should totally sponsor ballistics channels.

 

[Shivahasagun]

I carry the Underwood 68 gr Defense bullet in .380 "+p" and 9x19 +p. I need to look into .32 magnum and .327 magnum, too.

The bullets have generally proven it tears tissues similarly to a JHP.

The advertising is over the top but that doesn't diminish what the bullet does.

I wouldn't want that advertising read out in court, either. Best try really hard not to shoot anyone.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Consider what problem you want these bullets to solve.

To me, FMJ .380 doesn't cut a good hole because they are rounded. Not as bad as a pointed 9x19 or .38 spl but still not good.

Flat nosed bullets aren't common and often don't seem to feed well. JHP's often don't expand & act like a flat nose or do expand with less than desirable penetration.

The Lehigh bullets seem to bridge the gap in penetration between a FMJ and JHP on this caliber while cutting a good hole. The extra velocity and their shape will help to penetrate bone instead of deflecting. It will be less likely to get deflected off other tissues, too, probably.

They provide the same benefits in 9x19 plus, when you mags hold 17 rds these bullets really lower the total weight of the gun.

Same goes for 9mm carbines with the additional bonus that a 16 inch barrel let's these bullets achieve about 2100 fps. My chrono, my Beretta CX4 carbine. Great for HD.

The downside? These light bullets will drastically lose the ability to penetrate down-range due to the low weight. When it comes to missed shots, that's great! But if your target is 50+ yards away that could be a bad thing. Because of that I would not reccomend these bullets for law-enforcement.