Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Solo Flyer, Jul 2, 2008.
Like sitting in the back of the bus when you are told to? Smile politely and say okay?
1. Perhaps he saw the youtube video of the police officer speaking to (and subsequently releasing) the prison escapee who was "just jogging" down the railroad tracks.
2. Perhaps someone called in and he was responding to said call.
3. Just because someone is carrying concealed does not mean they are lawfully carrying concealed. So, he could be doing something wrong.
4. Could be a million other reasons. Point being, this officer was sharp enough to notice the object, aware of the risks that could be associated with it, and tactful (though not erring on the side of officer safety) in his approach.
5. I don't think "dude" is on anyone's side. Looks like he was just doing what he is paid to do.
I narrowed the post down to two members before I ever read the name. There is only one world Treo, we all live in it, and we all make sacrifices to enjoy our lives in it.
I firmly believe this:
1. The innocent have nothing to fear.
2. You decide the direction of a police encounter.
The OP's experience is a prime example of how to have a favorable outcome.
I really WANT to believe that the cops are on our side. I've met many a decent LEO, and had good conversations with a few of them. I think that the mix of good/bad people on the various police forces is probably not much different than any other mix of people.
But then I think about the way that many LEO's conducted themselves in the wake of Katrina. I understand that the situations depicted on videos like the one made by the NRA represent the most extreme cases, and that the majority of officers would never conduct themselves in such a manner. What scares me is the serious imbalance of power. The fact is that in the unlikely event that I am dealing with a bad LEO, there is very little that I can do to protect myself, and even less if I am not very careful what I say.
Is that a little paranoid? Yes, I think it is. I think the scenarios I fear are far from the most likely outcomes. And I try to be polite with police just as I do with anyone I encounter -- but the nagging thought remains that in any encounter, the police and ordinary citizens are not equals, and the ordinary citizen is at a severe disadvantage if things go south.
I would add to that as well that in some parts of the country, gun owners are regarded by LEO's as criminals that someone just forgot to pass laws for. The attitude of the law is that we should NOT be armed, even if we are behaving in a legal fashion. This is not the case everywhere, but in some places, the police have earned the distrust that many gun owners have for them.
To all the professional LEO's who are reading this thread -- thank you. I do understand that you doing a difficult job, and that at the end of the day I am safer for it. Please try to understand that just as you must always worry that a seemingly honest citizen is actually a predator that might represent a serious danger to you, those of us on the other side of the fence must worry about the small possibility that you are a dishonest LEO, and represent a serious threat to us. At the end of the day, I tend to regard LEO's as being about as likely as any other professional to turn out to be threatening, with the added proviso that they are always armed, and their word will always be taken over mine in court.
You watch way too much tv. We have the burden of proof. Without it or word means nothing.
Why didn't you just answer his question in the first place and be done with it, instead of playing unneeded games with the officer? Because you know the chief and other officers in your area, do you feel that wasting his time with your antics is warranted? Does it make you feel privileged or special?
Treo, you're not obligated to tell a cop about your CCW that I am aware of, but unless things have changed, it's a darn good idea to do so. I had to talk a Weld County Sheriff a couple of years ago, and as he ran my stuff he told me "your popping up on my system. Why is that"? Having never broken anything but traffic laws, I told him "Oh, it's probably my CCW permit". He said "Are you packing now?" I said "No, I would have told you if I was", and he told me that was a good policy but that I should have said something to begin with. It wasn't a big deal or anything like that, but your CCW does (or did, I am not sure if that has been addressed) flag you, and it makes a whole lot more sense to mention it straightaway rather than treat it as some sort of state secret.
Because,silly,when he asked "what are you packing?",how could I possibly know he was talking about my umbrella?I'm not a psychic,though I'd like to play one on TV.My firearm is invisible.
Now,OTOH,Timbo,you are making a lot of sense.I may have done it a little differently in retrospect.
Florida is NOT an OC state.Printing,although not common can lead to problems.That's why OC provisions are helpful even if you never intend to OC.
A gust of wind ,inadvertent bending over,too tight t-shirt,the list is endless.
In the traditional OC states, none of this is a worry.
Only 6 of the 50 states TOTALLY ban OC.
AR,FL,NY,OK.SC and TX.
Hopefully now,this will begin to change.
Might wanna try attending and graduating from an accredited law school that doesn't include YouTube videos before making such broad-sweeping statements.
It's exactly this kind of "advice" that someone may read and act upon that will cause them a lot of unnecessary--and expensive--grief.
No. I refused to respond to a welfare check call when a mother called for about the fourth time to check on her daughter at the Dad's house. I had before, and everything was fine. No more "punitive" welfare checks.
It's not. You are over-reacting by a huge margin. A cop can ask anything he wants. You don't have to respond. To think it's illegal to ask a question is simply, well, mind-boggling
That's rather polite of him. However, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy at the border. They can detain you without cause, take apart your car to search it, interview you as long as they want, etc. There no 4th Amendment protection when you attempt to cross the border.
The purpose of your crossing the border that he is guarding is exactly his business. I would think it very unwise to trifle with the guy that will decide whether you slip right through into the USA, or are detained for hours while your car is dismantled.
My 2 cents worth:
You will never understand what cops do or put up with unless you do that job. Try riding out with your local officer sometime, and you might have a sliver of an idea.
If you visit a DPS or post office in an urban environment, and then visit a DPS or post office in a rural environment, you'll see vast differences in personality and procedure.
I appreciate what you are saying, but this was not true in the area which I was born and raised.
I would like to add that I have the utmost appreciation for law enforcement officers in both urban and rural areas.
If I were conceal carrying and a police officer asked me "what are you packing"?, I would know dam well what he was talking about, and would have told him. Even if he was looking at a bulge that was my umbrella, what else do you think would be on his mind when he asks a question like that!
I'm sure he wasn't referring to your family jewels, at least I hope not!
By the way, in some states, if you are stopped by a police officer, you are obligated to tell him if you are carrying a firearm.
I pretty much fall in with Treo's thoughts here. The key is to attempt to discriminate what kind of cop is involved and then interact on a complementary basis that you as the stopee choose to be best.
If he is a freindly non-threatening kind of LEO, then go with the freindliness flow. If it is a bullying, impudent, harassing kind of cop, then be very careful and maybe the stiff and cooperative but not volunteering approach is best for that one.
I think that Tyrannosaurus has a good point in mentioning a city vs. rural variable. I think, though, that distinction is really a proxy for the more direct variable of professional cop/power drunk cop. The problem is, "How can one tell?" Treo's suggested approach is a good way to get some quickly usable info on what kind of authority style you would be dealing with.
LEOs on the street are creatures of respect. Disrespect 'em and you get costs. Of course, sometimes they deserve no respect, as in the case of Patty Konie. So, it's always a problem and sometimes a dilemma.
I would tend to think, at 125 miles north of the border, that your reasonable expectation returns.
To resolve a situation like that, where you are hesitant as to how to react, let the officer know that you are CC, comply with his/her orders, and tell, not ask, that you want a supervisor to respond to the scene, if you feel that you are being treated unjustly.
Well huh, I suppose I should read more carefully. Good catch.
It's legal to CC, but how is the officer supposed to know you have the proper permit? Obviously it is NOT legal to CC without the permit, so if he see's you running along with a gun bouncing about, I think he has every right to stop you and ask what's going on.
Interestingly, I had a little run in with a cop tonight that illustrates exactly this point. About 9:30 tonight, I went out to clean out my truck (it was cooler. It got up to 90 today!) and as the light in my parking lot wasn't sufficient, I had my flashlight out. A cop pulled in, saw me sticking out of the bed of my 1994 Green Ford Ranger 4x4 with a flashlight, so he stopped and asked me what I was doing. Rather than compute at what point I needed to tell him to buzz off, I simply said "I am cleaning my truck out, officer.". He said "Can I see your registration and ID?" I said, "Sure!" grabbed my stuff, he looked at it, looked at me, said thanks and left. I thought it was a little odd, but the whole thing took all of 5 minutes and that was that.
Come to find out about 15 minutes later from my building manager that someone on the other side of my complex had their 2005 Green Ford Ranger 4x4 broken into and had called the police, hence his appearance and questioning. Now, had I decided to be confrontational, how fast do you think that conversation would have went downhill? I didn't spend any time chit-chatting with him, but I also didn't spend any time trying to imply that he was a jackbooted thug with no right to question me as I went about my legitimate business either. Simple cooperation and courtesy goes a good deal further than confrontation.
Thinking about it further, what if that hadn't been me in my truck? That cop would have caught a robber right then and there and saved both me and the person whose truck had already been broken into a good deal of trouble. I said it once, I will say it again: The cop Solo encountered didn't know him, didn't know what was going on and simply did his job by conducting a quick investigation. I honestly fail to see what all the hubbub is about.
Good post, good point. It sounds to me like the cop was simply being proactive, friendly, and keeping an eye on things, in other words, as you point out, simply doing his job.
I haven't been able to reply as I've been traveling for 3 days on a 2 week vacation.
This comment seems to sum it all up.tpaw,didn't mean to sound so abrupt but in an totally unexpected situation you're pretty much playing it by ear.
Again,with all the fine advice and constuctive criticism I've received,if a similar situation occurs,I think my handling of the problem will be somewhat smoother.
Again,thank you all.
any interaction with the cops we just don't know what information they are processing beforehand.
If you don't know what I am posting about then I would advise you to rent the movie "My Cousin Vinny" and study the first 15 minutes.
When the cops pulled the two boys over did they do it because the boys were over the speed limit by a few miles? Or because they just had a report that two young males in an identical car shot and killed a storeowner ten minutes earlier?
When you are pulled over... or stopped by a cop for some seemingly "random" questions... don't assume what he is thinking or not thinking.
You don't know.
So my advice is simple. Don't be cute. Don't be hostile. Play it down the middle and be an adult.
, but in the rural and small town areas of Kentucky a feller has to be able to look after his own.
Problem is, some folks confuse being treated unjustly with hearing/receiving something that they do not like. And there are VERY few circumstances where you are going to bark orders at an LEO; ordering them to fetch a supervisor is not one of them. Professional LEO's do not enter into roadside debates. That is why he have courts and complaint processes. The roadside is the place where you are compliant and accomodate official requests and directives. Otherwise, you may find yourself riding the lightning and receiving a free ride to the grey bar hotel.
Separate names with a comma.