LEO's Chime In

[Gladius]

We qualified twice a year(IIRC, it's been a few years, it may have only been once a year), and they did provide free practice ammo (our unit got free practice ammo once a month). Of course, it was low-bidder stuff, so it was dirty and was a frequent source of FTF's and FTE's, so we not only got to practice shooting, we also got to practice reduction drills.

 

[herrwalther]

The department I work underneath mandatory qualifies twice a year for score, with issued carry ammunition. Currently it is Federal HST. Backup guns can also be qualified, with ammo provided by the department depending on caliber. If the BUG is a 380, 38, 32 etc (basically anything smaller than 9mm) you have to bring your own to qualify with. Every 3 months, officers are allowed to pull 50 rounds of practice ammo and access to the department range to practice. Many officers choose their BUG to be the same caliber, partially to cash in on getting the free practice ammo. Free ammo and place to shoot is incentive to get better or improve.

Any extra practice, the officer pays their own ammo. But is still allowed to use the range at no cost. They can practice with any firearm they bring duty, BUG, off duty, and personal weapons as long as they provide ammo. Any rounds fired through the duty weapon have to be documented, for maintenance reasons. And that can be as informal as "Hey Sarge, I fired 2 mags through my G21 this morning."

 

[zb338]

I was a special cop in a smallish kind of town in New Jersey for a time. The firearms officer (a Sergeant)
was a very good shooter. The rule was, qualify twice a year, but the Sergeant would buy bags of handloads
.38 Special at that time and gave ammo to anyone who wanted to shoot. Pretty much whenever they
wanted it. A few guys and myself did a lot of shooting because it was our hobby. The rest only shot when
they had to.
Zeke

 

[Jenrick]

I like to shoot as much as anyone, but being in the sun all day loading mags, running drills, picking up brass, and cleaning guns when it's all over becomes much more like work than pleasure after the first couple of times. We shoot three times per year, all day sessions with night shooting as well. When your hobby becomes work it can take a little of the enjoyment out of it.

Ain't that the truth. Coming up on 4 years at the range this year, as a full time firearms instructor. In that time I have spent better then 60% of my time on the line in a big concrete box watching other people shoot. I personally shoot a work type firearm (rifle, shotgun, semi-auto handgun, or revolver) only when I'm getting ready to teach and need to touch up a little bit for the demo's, or whenever we need to do ammo testing. Other then that I tend to shoot a lot of air rifle, and small bore type stuff, and even black powder. Basically whatever I can find that is the polar opposite of what I deal with all day at work. Shooting is still a great passion of mine, but it's a job now. We all know that any job takes the fun out of whatever it is at a certain point.

-Jenrick

 

[hso]

if this is SOP for most agencies or if it's specific to each dept

Not an LEO, but unsurprisingly several friends are. THEY tell me that they have only annual qualifications with range time and ammunition available monthly and the city/country joint LE training range.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

My department requires us to qualify once a year with duty and off duty weapons. We are also required to have 40 hours of inservice training a year, 20 of which are at the range. The department provides free ammo for practice, 50 rounds per gun, on our off time. The bad thing is that the range is 20 mile north of town.
The state POST course is 60 rounds with a possible score of 120, and you have to shoot a minimum score of 98 to qualify. If you fail to qualify you have to turn in your department vehicle and come back the next day to shoot again. If you fail again, you are put into retreating for a week.
About two years ago the department implemented a new policy that if you scored below 105 you had to go to retraining. Before this new policy not many officers practiced on their own time. The numbers have picked up in the last two years.
My job on my department requires me to shoot several guns. I go through around 2000 rounds a year just doing my daily job.
There are over 700 officers on my department and there's no way it could afford to have us qualify two or three times a year.

 

[fpgt72]

Sad, but I see that point. However liability and paying out in civil suits is pretty expensive also.

Gambling.....

Who you going to sue? The agency is providing the training required by law.

Had a talk with a guy......people get ticked that well if the office wants me to shoot more they should provide the ammo.....well ok, lets look at this a little closer....they expect you to shave and bathe....should they provide a razor, water soap....yea a bit extreme but it fits.

Just what does a box of ammo cost....white box is pretty darn cheap. $30 per month...get with your buddies and you can buy in bulk and get the cost down under that....personally I don't get it.

 

[fpgt72]

I like to shoot as much as anyone, but being in the sun all day loading mags, running drills, picking up brass, and cleaning guns when it's all over becomes much more like work than pleasure after the first couple of times. We shoot three times per year, all day sessions with night shooting as well. When your hobby becomes work it can take a little of the enjoyment out of it.

We have a academy so guess who takes care of cleanup.

But good point, when you shoot you shoot rain or shine...unless big lighting....if you have never worn a vest you have no clue...no clue at all. You qualify in your "normal" work attire...if you are in uniform you are all kitted up...and let me tell you it gets hot....if it is sunny and 70 it is hot.

You brought up a very good point....but really shooting is not your work....it is something you have to do for work, but chances are you will still never use it. I still enjoy shooting, but the thing is most are not "gun guys".

 

[fpgt72]

Ain't that the truth. Coming up on 4 years at the range this year, as a full time firearms instructor. In that time I have spent better then 60% of my time on the line in a big concrete box watching other people shoot. I personally shoot a work type firearm (rifle, shotgun, semi-auto handgun, or revolver) only when I'm getting ready to teach and need to touch up a little bit for the demo's, or whenever we need to do ammo testing. Other then that I tend to shoot a lot of air rifle, and small bore type stuff, and even black powder. Basically whatever I can find that is the polar opposite of what I deal with all day at work. Shooting is still a great passion of mine, but it's a job now. We all know that any job takes the fun out of whatever it is at a certain point.

-Jenrick

You are different....it is your job day in and day out....but the normal guy in the street, jail, court....whatever, they my (and likely) only touch their gun once in a great while.

It is like the old story never buy a car from a mechanic.

 

[waterhouse]

We qual once a year with mandatory once a month training.

We are allowed (on our own time) to use the city range and shoot a box of ammo a day (city ammo) if we drive out there. For many in the department the range is about an hour drive so not many drive out just to shoot.

We also have lots of mandatory classroom training every year, so usually on classroom breaks you can go shoot your daily box of ammo.

The thing to keep in mind is police officers are just a subset of the population. Just like any shooting club or range, we have some guys that generally place near the top at state shooting competitions and guys who struggle to pass our very easy annual qual.

 

[Tirod]

Frankly, the military at large can't afford to shoot more than annually, by and large. A few specific unit's get a lot more, an MOS like sniper does it all week rain or shine. But overall, no, not even the trigger pullers in the Army get to shoot monthly. Not hardly.

And that is why the widespread adoption of red dots, to increase first shot hits. If the marksman isn't getting the trigger time to maintain "expert" level skills, then the use of an optical device proven to increase hits is the answer. A shooter getting out repeatedly can shoot very well with just irons - but keep him off the range with other duties and training and the skills deteriorate. Hand him a red dot and the increase in hits improves - even at $800 it's much cheaper than the annual expense in ammo to maintain that skill level.

Police? Makes no difference what they might do, the result is what they actually do, cops don't shoot often enough to put 50% of their rounds on target, much less center of mass. It usually runs less than 25% and if two or more are shooting it seems to drop even worse. Another affect is the issue of high cap magazine duty pistols, which has increased the number of rounds shot and worsened the percentages. The tactical idea is that more bullets means more hits, the reality is that more bullets means LESS hits when an officer needs to just fire one accurately. It's NOT combat on the streets, as some NY bystanders will testify from their hospital beds.

Let's not ignore that the French and British LEO's are still largely not equipped with a carry firearm, and they seem to get the job done by and large. I sometimes wonder if the caution to not let the government build up a standing army on the streets is being ignored by those who control it here.

 

[GRIZ22]

I like to shoot as much as anyone, but being in the sun all day loading mags, running drills, picking up brass, and cleaning guns when it's all over becomes much more like work than pleasure after the first couple of times. We shoot three times per year, all day sessions with night shooting as well. When your hobby becomes work it can take a little of the enjoyment out of it.

Loading mags, picking up brass, and cleaning guns are things the shooters should be doing. Shooters should use the mags they carry to make sure they work. Cleaning is something they need to know how to do. That's all part of training. The Having 10,20, or more people picking up brass is much more time efficient than one guy doing it.

FWIW, NYPD had a range in many precincts in terms city. I think you got a box of ammo a month free. Many took advantage of this. OSHA shut down just about all of these for poor ventilation. Last time I heard NYPD has two places to shoot Rodman's Neck and one indoor range in Brooklyn.

 

[9MMare]

Who you going to sue? The agency is providing the training required by law.

Had a talk with a guy......people get ticked that well if the office wants me to shoot more they should provide the ammo.....well ok, lets look at this a little closer....they expect you to shave and bathe....should they provide a razor, water soap....yea a bit extreme but it fits.

Just what does a box of ammo cost....white box is pretty darn cheap. $30 per month...get with your buddies and you can buy in bulk and get the cost down under that....personally I don't get it.

Cities and counties are sued (successfully) by people harmed by improper shootings and other police actions. Have you not heard of this?

 

[Jim Watson]

My club shared a range with the PD for 30 years. They qualified twice a year and had night shoots now and then.
Otherwise, they were seldom seen on the range except that a few would come out and practice the week before qualification.

 

[SilentStalker]

Just depends on Chief and the locale. I know several friends who work for precincts that practice full days at least 2x a month, especially for SWAT.

 

[fpgt72]

Cities and counties are sued (successfully) by people harmed by improper shootings and other police actions. Have you not heard of this?

you need to work on your reading comprehension....an improper shooting is very different from not hitting your target under stress....if you provide the training required and john q deputy does everything right but does not hit the bad guy....and drives away....now I am not talking about bullets going in places they should not go....I am not talking about not chasing bad guys in cars because the bad guy will run into someone....and hay if the police was not chasing then little johnny would not have gotten run into....this is outside this discussion.

Go back to the latest poster child example for cruddy marksmen ship skills....the Florida FBI shooting. Those guys in large part had issues because they could not hit what they aimed at.

 

[9MMare]

you need to work on your reading comprehension....an improper shooting is very different from not hitting your target under stress....if you provide the training required and john q deputy does everything right but does not hit the bad guy....and drives away....now I am not talking about bullets going in places they should not go....I am not talking about not chasing bad guys in cars because the bad guy will run into someone....and hay if the police was not chasing then little johnny would not have gotten run into....this is outside this discussion.

Go back to the latest poster child example for cruddy marksmen ship skills....the Florida FBI shooting. Those guys in large part had issues because they could not hit what they aimed at.

Not sure what you mean, I guess I dont read all that well. I used 'improper' as a generic term to cover shooting the wrong person, hitting bystanders, shooting when NOT permitted (bad shoot, like possibly this woman that was in her pajamas in Minnesota), etc.

And there are definitely cases where the officers are not charged, dont even lose their jobs, yet the city or county pays out in civil suits.

 

[Old Dog]

Go back to the latest poster child example for cruddy marksmen ship skills....the Florida FBI shooting. Those guys in large part had issues because they could not hit what they aimed at.

Wrong. This incident was widely regarded as a failure of tactics and issue ammunition, i.e., have a plan and don't bring revolvers, auto-loaders with 9mm Silvertips and shotguns to a rifle fight.

 

[Old Dog]

And 9mmMare is also correct. Very common scenario.

 

[Old Dog]

And back on topic, it's more important now for city, county and federal agencies to require applicants for law enforcement positions to have at least two years of college and a favorable psychological profile than for prospective LEOs to have an actual commitment to the job and be interested in all the tools (e.g. firearms) of the trade. No longer are guys (and gals) fresh out of the military regarded as the best prospects.

Departments I've worked with, always had a core group of gun guys but 90% only shot during semi-annual quals. However, I'm always surprised at how many of the twice-a-year shooters still manage high scores and seem to enjoy shooting.

 

[Jenrick]

Another affect is the issue of high cap magazine duty pistols, which has increased the number of rounds shot and worsened the percentages. The tactical idea is that more bullets means more hits, the reality is that more bullets means LESS hits when an officer needs to just fire one accurately. It's NOT combat on the streets, as some NY bystanders will testify from their hospital beds.

I've never understood this concept that if we give officers less ammo to work with they'll some how magically shoot better. If I need 1 good hit to stop a gun fight, and I have a hit percentage of between 5%-9% that means I need to have (statistically) between 12 and 20 rounds in my gun to have 1 good hit without a reload. If you have a suggestion on how to make that happen with a 6 shot revolver I'm all ears. Having less rounds in the pistol does not magically make people settle down and shoot better, it simply means they are more likely to need to reload before they get that 1 fight stopping shot.

Let's not ignore that the French and British LEO's are still largely not equipped with a carry firearm, and they seem to get the job done by and large.

Culturally we have a massively different type of society and crime then France and the UK. Hell Japan has even less armed cops then those two, but again a vastly different culture and society. Our legal systems are very different, and the authorities of officers are vastly different.

-Jenrick

 

[km101]

The department I worked for required semi-annual qualifications. This was handgun, rifle (AR-15), and shotgun. They required handgun qualification with full power duty loads. You had to qualify with the ammo you carried on the street. You also had to qualify with your off-duty weapon.

The department furnished qualification ammo and a box of practice ammo a month. Unfortunately hardly anyone took advantage of the practice ammo.

 

[Sundancer2004]

There seems to be a normal thing when referring to police firearms skills that many are simply not into guns and don't shoot much at all other than the couple/few times a year they have to "qualify".

I recently read a post in a thread on this forum where a LE said that his department was required to practice twice a week.

I'm just wondering if this is SOP for most agencies or if it's specific to each dept.

They must have had one hell of a liberal budget, most that I ever knew was once a year.

 

[Sarge7402]

I've worked as a LEO/CO for over 20 years. The most I'd seen (and I was a RO for over 10 years) was quarterly qualification. My current agency has over 9000 sworn officers (Corrections) and more than once a year is a challange for the RO's, the range facilities and logistically

 

[fpgt72]

Wrong. This incident was widely regarded as a failure of tactics and issue ammunition, i.e., have a plan and don't bring revolvers, auto-loaders with 9mm Silvertips and shotguns to a rifle fight.

You need to study that again.,. not going to side rail this therad... might start a new one