Less Lethal 12 gauge rounds.......

[MrAcheson]

One of the big things to consider with less than lethals is ballistics. Bean bags are not shotshells, they don't spread out with range. Furthermore most beanbags don't fly straight if you have to use them at any significant range whatsoever. This means your easy to use shotgun is now doubly inaccurate and less likely to hit someone than a rifle.

If you want to use them use them, but keep in mind that you are giving the intruder an advantage which s/he can use against you.

 

[Dave McCracken]

We kicked this around on TFL, maybe the best HD load would be a specialty load that was good and effective, but of lowered energy and payload.

I posit something like a 2 1/2" shell, loaded with a good shotcup and filled with 6 00 pellets, driven at a nominal velocity of 1100 FPS. Slightly less than a 3/4 oz load, and sped just slightly over the speed of sound.

00 would be the pellet of choice for better penetration at that speed(lots of mass) and the thing would still beat the heck out of any reasonable handgun cartridge for energy, with great controllability and effect.

1100 FPS because expansion will hinder overpenetration, and pure lead deforms best and transfers energy best above 1000 FPS. And, the muzzle flash would probably be much less. Those of us who haven't tried our "Serious" ammo under low light conditions are entreated to do so NOW. Don't wait for an unpleasant reality check...

And a 2 1/2" shell not because of greater mag capacity,but for easier transit through the feed path under stressful and hazardous conditions. I've never had a problem shortstroking,but this would possibly help there too.

Also,it's slightly less likely to cause the mag spring to "Set", when stored for a while loaded.

And while still a pure D "Stopper", it may be a "Less Lethal" load. How much difference that would make in a court of Law is a hard call.

Finally, the low kick and fast repeat shots may make this suitable for all those we live with that are NOT shotgunners, but may have need for defending themselves and our families.Kick is why Mrs McC isn't a shotgun fan...

And for those 20 gauge owners, a similar load of say 1/2 oz and same speed would fill the niche. Make those #3 or 4 pellets.

Of course, these are close range loads only, and I'd want a nearby supply of normal stuff if the action moves outside, but IMO, this is a need the ammo makers aren't filling.

How about it?

 

[Jeff White]

Dave,

My defensive long gun is my Colt R6920 LE Carbine and I have to admit I haven't looked at the 12 gauge shotgun as anything more then a special purpose weapon (breaching, gas launching etc.) in several years. So I'm not really up on the latest in buckshot loads. (NOTE: I'm not interested in turning this into a which is better thread, everyone should decide what weapon best meets their personal needs and situation)

At what velocity does the 00 buck in a normal 2 3/4 inch load move?

Would you need a choke at anything longer then across the room distance? Or would it drop velocity too fast to be of any use?

Have you shot this load into test walls made of say 2 layers of sheetrock with 2x4 studs (simulating an interior wall) and one with sheetrock 2x4 studs, R11 or better fibergalss insulation sheathing (plywood or particle board) and siding (vinyl or aluminum)?

How about calibrated ordnance gelatin?

Why do you say it may be less lethal? Here again, I would recommend that you stay totally away from the term less lethal. I'm not a lawyer, I've never played one on TV, but I don't think it's a good thing to use a deadly weapon and expect it to perform otherwise. If you aren't willing to accept the moral and legal consequences of killing the person you are pointing the shotgun at, maybe you shouldn't be pointing it.

Lastly you speak of the low kick and fast follow up shots. How much lower recoil would it have compared to some of the low recoil police loads out there?

Jeff

 

[Dave McCracken]

Jeff, agreed on no which is better debate.

Standard buck moves around 1250 FPS in the real world, R/R stuff 1150 to 1200, IIRC. Some may be slower or faster. Magnum means slower due to greater mass,unlike rifle Magnums where velocity's increased.

Choke is meaningless across the room. The load hits as a semi solid or solid mass, like a Glazer Safety slug of .73 caliber.

I haven't done any tests, but some were done by someone(I think CR Sam) on TFL, and the Federal database had some stuff on walls, gelatin, walls and gelatin, walls, gelatin and clothing, etc.

Few absolutes exist but some general trends do.
Big pellets keep their energy better regardless of whether they're moving through air, water or biomass than smaller ones. Greater speed means more penetration to a point,then lesser because of greater deformation. That's energy transfer at work, a good thing in most cases.

Naturally, the engineer types would R&D this to get maximum benefit, I'm just throwing some ideas out there.

This ammo would still be quite lethal, and any use of it will constitute Deadly Force.

Lastly, best guess would be about 40% less free recoil, going on 1/3 less weight and maybe 10% less velocity.

 

[Jeff White]

Dave,
I knew choke was meaningless across the room. I was referring to why you wouldn't want to use this load outside.

I'm pretty familiar with the physics involved, although I didn't know that a magnum shotgun load was slower.

I'm curious as to what advantages your load has over some of the new Federal offerings (well new to me anyway)?

Jeff

 

[Dave McCracken]

Jeff, even big pellets run out of steam PDQ, and these would be started slower. Still these should work out to 25 yards, and the slower speed will probably mean tighter patterns.

As for advantages over what's on the market today, less kick, less chance of overpenetration, faster recovery times, etc.

 

[CMichael]

How fast the pellets go is on the box. If it says 1200 feet per second, I assume it's approx. 1200 feet per second.

Even though there are bigger pellets there are less of them. So 1 1/8 oz of big pellets is the same weight as 1 1/8 oz of small pellets.

Also if indeed the pellets are heavier that can be compensated with more powder.

 

[Jack-in-TX]

It's All in the Order You Load It

I'm willing to kill to defend myself and my family.

I would prefer not to kill while defending myself and my family.

My M2 is loaded with 2 rounds of shotbag, 1 round of rubber slug, and then 3 rounds of 00 buck.

Since I practice, I know I can accurately deliver those rounds at any self-defense range in far less time than it can take to close that range on me.

If that fails, my wife is behind me with the .45, and she's not as nice as I am.

 

[ArmedBear]

If that fails, my wife is behind me with the .45, and she's not as nice as I am.

Unfortunately, she'll have to dodge a rubber slug bouncing around the house...

Bottom line? If you aren't morally and legally justified in killing someone, you should not pull the trigger. Any of those projectiles can kill someone at in-home ranges.

If you ARE facing an armed assailant, and you have to shoot, you want them down, for good, before they kill your family.

BTW here are the projectiles you mention: http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html

Here's the warning: this ammo is lethal at close ranges.

In the 1970's the U.S. Army Land Warfare Laboratory conducted research and published a report on blunt impact weapons which resulted in a finding that impact energies between 30 and 90 foot pound are 'dangerous', i.e. contusions, abrasions, broken ribs, concussions, loss of the eyes or superficial organ damage, whereas 'Severe Damage' occurs if impact exceeds 90 foot pounds. (ibid., p.337). 'Severe Damage' includes serious skin lacerations, massive skull fractures, rupture of the heart and kidney, fragmentation of the liver, and hemorrhages. This ammunition has a high probability of being lethal or producing Severe Damage as defined above at less than 12 feet.

 

[rbernie]

Using a seven year old thread for research is A Very Good Thing. Dragging it back from the dead just to make a statement is not.

If y'all really wanna debate LTL loads, the Legal forum is probably a better place to do it (since the purpose for using LTL loads has nothing to do with the technicalities of Shotguns)...