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Lesson at Range Tonight

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by gvf, May 16, 2009.

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  1. gvf

    gvf Member

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    The owner of a range I shoot at let's some regulars he trusts work with a motorized target as it moves back to you from about 25' out to zero, shooting as it moves, this when the range has few or none other shooting. Though shooting only 2 years and 60+ years old I've become petty good, off-duty police and others at the range have helped me and I am one of the "trusted".

    Even though I practice drawing and firing with various techniques: two hands using sights, one-handed from a crouch, shooting from the hip etc., there was only time for one technique tonight as the target (the "perp") quickly moved in on me: that was one-handed point shooting from a crouch, arm straight out, non-dominant arm held in the air or covering chest. I can draw and fire the first shot pretty quickly, about 3 seconds, but even so, the "perp" - moving at about what a run would be - was at best no more than 10' feet away as my gun was moving forward from the draw. With a two handed grip "he" was 6' and closing, and I still wasn't really set. One handed point shooting was it.

    So, brought home to me what I've read about real shootings in SD situations: NO TIME usually for aimed or two-handed if someone is running at you, one handed and point shooting is the story often.

    Also brought home what I don't hear discussed much when questions are asked about best first gun and what caliber etc.: the first consideration should be: get a gun that can be concealed with enough comfort to want to carry it, and in a position on the belt where you can get to it FAST; so, a gun you can deploy, shoot accurately with multiple shots or: it won't matter if it's the greatest gun on earth and the best caliber known to man. You won't have a chance to use it. A very good holster and belt I would also suggest.

    My thoughts anyway for what they're worth.

    I guess one last point too: if you're older you can learn to shoot well. I had an incident a few years ago while walking alone at night. I wanted to learn how to protect myself so I could still enjoy simple pleasures like an evening walk as I aged. Why shouldn't I have that right? Now I do again.

    Thanks.

    PS: I enclosed a photo of the two one-handed positions I use if anyone's interested: I think the "crouch" one also was recommended in a recent article I read about real shootings: because no matter what stance people learn, often their body reacts instinctively to great danger by closing up (crouching) and the arms moving out and up for protection - so learning to shoot like that might also serve best in an emergency since that's what might happen anyway to your body. Not sure about that but I am quite accurate and fast with it - works for me anyway. I shoot with snub nosed Colt Detective or Colt Cobra - alternately I carry full size Glock .45 GAP, (the 37, same duty as our State Police, New York, and really accurate). Only difference I use in "Crouch" pictured below is I keep my gun-arm pretty straight, helps with accuracy.
     

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    Last edited: May 17, 2009
  2. rhartwell

    rhartwell Member

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    Ithink you are so lucky to get such practice. I am also 60 and jealous. I would love to try this
     
  3. 23Glock

    23Glock Member

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    You need to do some Tueller Drills.
    The danger zone should be considered about 21 feet. If they are within 21 feet they can close on you with a contact weapon in about 1.5 seconds, before you can effectively present. I've trained with older gentlemen in their 70's who have no problem pulling off a sub-1.8 second controlled pair from the holster. So I'm not buying that age is a factor for you (respectfully)... :)

    Now, shooting from the "crouch", one handed, or point-shooting are probably not ideal. I would practice a 5 count presentation - slow and smooth. Count 3 is your first and last viable shooting platform. Practice presenting as the target moves toward you and shoot at the latest point possible after count 3. The smoother and faster your presentation gets with practice, the farther you will be able to extend your arms into Count 5 before firing. When you get to the point where you're fast enough to get full extension on count 5, you should also be able to get a flash sight picture too (so no point shooting). I'm not a fan of point shooting - it has it's place, but I always try to get at least a flash sight picture before squeezing the first one off.

    +100 - no truer words.
     
  4. Lew

    Lew Member

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    Thanks for the post and some food for thought. I don't really practice one-handed shooting. Maybe I should.
     
  5. YammyMonkey

    YammyMonkey Member

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    I'm glad you got that experience. A lot of people out there can only stand in a bay & slowfire at a target no closer than 7 yards. Sounds like you have some very good opportunities.

    Were you doing the stand tall & deliver routine or could you move? Movement will give you a lot more time & options. Sideways/45* angle-ish movement will usually give you the best results. Backwards is too slow, straight ahead defeats the purpose unless you're looking to close & go hands on.

    With practice & training your ability to get your gun into the fight quickly will improve. About the fastes draw out there is from an appendix rig. Right up front also make it easier to defend from an attempted disarm.

    You're very correct in that the best gun in the world doesn't mean anything if you can't get it into the fight. Something is better than nothing but most people can conceal more gun than they think they can.

    I'm not in the least bit concerned about "stance." I do want my feet close to shoulder width & pointing in the direction of travel but past that all the majic happens from the hips up.
     
  6. David E

    David E Member

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    Good practice, to be sure.

    But with not a whole lot of training time, it isn't hard to learn how to use two hands quickly. This also results in better accuracy, as a rule.

    One hand hip shooting has its place, but to become very good at it, a lot of practice is required.
     
  7. flrfh213

    flrfh213 Member

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    muscle memory is an important part of this training too...
     
  8. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    GVF, there are quite a few good, honest, serious folks who have run the experiments that you're running now. These experiments have led them to some fundamental techniques that work (as well as quite a few that don't). My suggestion for you: find someone who can coach you in the techniques that work. You'll progress much more quickly if you do.

    My experience has been that my speed and accuracy improved significantly when I attended a Gunsite basic pistol class. Before, I was mostly self-taught. I appreciate having been able to learn from Col. Cooper's observations and techniques (as well as those of others who have followed him).

    I make this suggestion SOLELY on the basis of the time that you say it takes you to draw and fire one shot: about 3 seconds. If my experience is any guide (I'm old, fat, and ride a desk most days) you should be able to draw and fire one shot in about half this time if you learn and use effective techniques.

    I second your comments about holsters, belts, and firearms. A quality holster that holds the gun securely, a belt that supports the holster well, and a firearm in a service caliber that is reliable are all you really need. Lots of guns/holsters/belts fit these descriptions.

    Glad you're practicing and learning! Keep it up!
     
  9. DAVIDSDIVAD

    DAVIDSDIVAD member

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    Usually, I keep the phrase, "Run before you gun" in my head.
    If someone's 25 feet away from me, I can usually get away from them or at least take a few giant steps back, in a hurry, in order to get some space between us.
    An important thing to remember is that you don't have to be stationary.

    When I practice draws, I always lunge backwards.
    A strategy used in Iaido (japanese sword dudes drawing swords) is to not only pull the sword forward with their hands, but to also pull the hips away, so that you're drawing with both your hands, and your hips.

    I think if practiced this can also help you to clear leather more smoothly and quickly.
     
  10. gvf

    gvf Member

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    Thanks all for all your comments. i definitely will try some of these techniques suggested - and working with one very knowledgeable trainer would be very good - I'll see what I can do about that.

    I also realize I'm lucky to have such opportunities as this range allows me. I know it's not usual. And you really need some way to bring home the realities to you. E.g., It's amazing the quote of 23Glock :

    It seems at 21' with a stationary target at a range there is all the time in the world, but real life is not like that.
     
  11. SuperFlanker

    SuperFlanker Member

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    at a range you probably can't even cross-fire so its not realistic. in a real fight you have to be on the move finding angles and getting the right distance, stationary targets get killed quickly.
     
  12. Gdstealth

    Gdstealth Member

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    What about lasers? I got Crimson Trace which I love for my 9mm because of the potential of close combat in the home. Don't get me wrong, I practice, static and moving and I am real good at close range 20-40 ft without the laser... I just figure that in a real situation anything that helps is a good thing.
     
  13. Seattleimport

    Seattleimport Member

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    I hear this often, and I have to wonder: would my range time be better spent learning a contact weapon? Such as a knife? Or empty hand?
     
  14. YammyMonkey

    YammyMonkey Member

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    You're much more likely to need to be able to go hands on than shoot or stab someone. They all have their place, but IMO learning some good empty had techniques will benefit most of us more than the gun skills will.

    It's not a matter of which you should practice, but percentages of each you should practice.
     
  15. RTC

    RTC Member

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    Close Range Attacks

    I used to run sprints in track many years ago. A good time for me was 10.4 seconds for 100 yards. 21 feet is about 7% of the 300 feet. A calculator tells me that 21 feet could be covered in less than 1 second at the above speed. And by no means was I ever the fastest. With all that in mind, the comments about knowing some type of hand defense are very true. Even deflecting the person and/or the weapon can give you extra time to draw and shoot. This is intriguing enough that I am going to build some type of motor driven target to close at me from 30 feet away. I'll let you know when I get it working. An attack from this distance doesn't give someone much time to react, much less yell "Stop" etc.
     
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