Let’s End This Debate Once and For All Federal HST 9mm +P Versus Federal Punch 38Special +P

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Revolver Showdown: 9mm vs .357 Magnum Accuracy, Velocity & Ballistics Test!​

In this in-depth ballistic test, we put four legendary revolvers head-to-head to see how they perform in terms of accuracy, velocity, and lethality through Clear Ballistics gel. Whether you’re a collector, shooter, or just love wheelguns, this is one you don’t want to miss!

Revolvers Tested: Ruger Speed Six (9mm) Ruger Speed Six (.357 Magnum) Smith & Wesson 686 CS-1 (.357 Magnum) Smith & Wesson 547 (9mm)

Ammo Used: Federal HST 9mm 124gr Federal Punch .38 Special +P 120gr

Tests Conducted: Chronograph velocity testing, accuracy comparisons, Clear Ballistics gel testing for penetration and expansion. See how the classic revolvers stack up with modern defensive ammo! Does 9mm hold its own in a wheelgun? How does .38Special compare in real-world performance? Let’s find out.

Gel Results​

38Spl+P

9mm+P

The Best For Me?​

Based on studying the data above I would chose the S&W 686 with Federal Punch 38 Special +P 120gr. This is my rationale, Though the 9mm in the Ruger Speed Six achieved 1in greater penetration due to higher velocity and projectile weight over the 38 Special. I was able to deliver the same number of shots on target with more lethality based upon the score with a quicker time.

Video Evidence​

Let's End This Debate Once and For All Federal HST 9mm +P Versus Federal Punch 38Special +P

🔫 Revolver Showdown: 9mm vs .357 Magnum Accuracy, Velocity & Ballistics Test! 💥In this in-depth ballistic test, we put four legendary revolvers head-to-hea...

youtu.be

So What’s The Argument About?​

For me it is clear cut get out and practice with your preference as the slight difference in performance between the calibers will really be in your hands.

So when someone is trying to convince me one over the other, I always offer them a trip to the range with me. Not for competition, not to say I told you so but to set them up for success when needed to make sure their performance and actions back up their statements and conviction to a caliber.

Don’t forget to have fun on this journey to find out what is right for you.

Mr. Revolverguy I’m Signing Out

 

[sgt127]

Ya got a great attitude. You can shoot. And, you’re animated and entertaining.

Nice summation. Pretty much as I expected. They expanded beautifully. And, acted as a parachute. 10-11” of penetration is way less than I want.

 

[vanfunk]

Great post, thanks @Mr.Revolverguy! I carry the 120 grain Federal Punch .38 load in my snubs. The velocity is a bit lower in my J frames and Colt Cobra but I still strongly suspect it’ll be a good performer if needed. I do like the look of those expanded 9mm bullets, though!

 

[GooseGestapo]

The S&W 686 is never a bad choice. I was issued a 4” 686 in ‘87 and surrendered it in ‘96 when the agency transitioned to the Glock M22 in .40S&W.
In ‘98, I shot a National Record in the NRA PPC Off Duty revolver match (2.5”bbl limit) with my personal M-686 w/2.5”bbl that still stands. (480-43x). But it’s never seen a .357mag or .38+P round fired through it. Timing and lock up are perfection.

I don’t see a significant difference in actual ballistic performance between the two loads. Both performed very well! Firing multiple shots for a statistical comparison might make a minor difference more minor….

Given the performance of the new ammunition offers; in my 25yr LE career, given the choice- not due to agency policies- in retrospect I’d have gotten a S&W Model -67 and had a post front sight installed and called it good!
Otherwise, I prefer the Mod-19. Much lighter than the M-686 that got really heavy at the end of extended patrols…. Which could extend into days instead of hours… and the option of .357mag ammo.

 

[Archie]

The debate will likely never be over.
I am more impressed with momentum than kinetic energy and penetration in synthetic media. (By 'impressed' one means 'effectiveness' in historic observation.)

I am not impressed with great volumes of rounds to shoot. Into the air or back wall, based on the first wild shot or two.

Heavy projectiles, hit with the first shot.

 

[Outpost75]

Neither round produces enough penetration to defeat heavy clothing and a defensively positioned arm held over the sternum. I will stick to 147 grain Federal 9MS in my S&W 940 and Beretta 92F carries.

 

[sgt127]

Heavy projectiles, hit with the first shot.

Yes.

And, go deep enough. Heavy usually will.

In the case of .38 Special, I’ve gone to the Underwood 150 Gr Hardcast wadcutter.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

You all make THR great to be able to have this conversation in a civilized way. I fully recognize this is RIGHT FOR ME!

Serving in the military and being connected to law enforcement for 35years combined now. I have seen more full metal jacket projectiles cause more fatalities than anything else. As most want the cheapest they can buy. I am not saying this is a reason to not get the best you can. Even with the total of years of training I have spent, data says the ability to disable a threat on the first shot is VERY LOW unless you have the element of surprise on your side, which increases it by a few percentage points.

Heavy projectiles I absolutely agree with but I know that generally means more felt recoil which lessons my chances on first stop hits which are already low probability based on circumstances to begin with. Though now Sgt127 has pushed me down the rabbit hole and I want to do this with heavy projectiles now LOL.

 

[sgt127]

Though now Sgt127 has pushed me down the rabbit hole and I want to do this with heavy projectiles now LOL.

It’s a terribly unassuming little round with ferocious penetration and good energy…

I’d much rather watch your video…

Carry on…I look forward to your “Whooo-wee!” When it sails through your entire gel block (s).


(Like, seriously. If you wanna keep the bullet, put some 2x4’s or water jugs behind the block. Expect 20+ inches of penetration )

Shooting Test: Underwood Ammo 38 Special Standard Pressure 150 grain Lead Wadcutter - 1.9" Ruger LCR

Link to the (unlisted for poor lighting) chronograph test: https://youtu.be/NlYMI0CkDQ8Should you throw soup cans from a snubbie? In this installment of Disc...

m.youtube.com

 

[LAH]

Enjoyed the test Mr revolver guy

 

[Leatherbark]

I use 158 gr. round nose lead in my 38's just like the 1930's gangsters.

 

[shoebox1.1]

Yes.

And, go deep enough. Heavy usually will.

In the case of .38 Special, I’ve gone to the Underwood 150 Gr Hardcast wadcutter.

I’m carrying my eggelston 158’s in 38 spc and 357 magnum -650 and 1080 fps respectively

 

[sgt127]

I’m carrying my eggelston 158’s in 38 spc and 357 magnum -650 and 1080 fps respectively

Nice looking Semi Wadcutters. Are those pretty hard? I assume so if you’re pushing them over 1000 fps.

 

[buck460XVR]

Let’s End This Debate Once and For All​

.....ain't gonna happen. Just sayin'.

 

[fastbolt]

You clearly enjoy your interest and hobby.

Perennial debate which won't achieve consensus, though.

While I carried pistols throughout more of the 34-odd years I carried a badge, I still trend to favor my revolvers. Especially my J-frames, but a 6-shot .357MAG is still my 'standard' if I'm going to reach for a belt gun. Yes, like you observed, a 4" 686 can become a bit heavy on the belt after enough hours. My remaining standard size wheelies consist of a 4" Service-Six and a 3" 65. I do wish I'd not let my various Security/Speed-Six guns slip away over the years, though.

While testing for controllability is pretty basic, the use of clear gel does have its limitations. It's generally known to overstate penetration and understate expansion.

In my service revolver days (80's) I carried a 4" 66 and then a 4" 686. While I dabbled with the 125gr load when it was the newest parade float, over the long run I mostly favored the mid-marge loads, meaning 140-145gr.

I also tend to lean toward the first 1 hit being a solid one, accurately placed (anatomically), as being an optimal situation. Having grown up as a Magnum revolver shooter I looked for quick and consistent controllability (more in DA wheelies) being the goal. That came to pay dividends in the years when I came to carry J-frames, especially loaded with +P and MAG loads.

 

[doubleh]

It won't end the debate. Just look at all the "best caliber for bear defence" debates. Shooters have been arguing over the best caliber since firearms were invented and it will never cease. Good try but it's human nature to disagree about most anything..

 

[sgt127]

over the long run I mostly favored the mid-marge loads, meaning 140-145gr.

Remember the old Speer Lawman line? The Trooper and Deputy loadings? Yellow plastic hinged boxes.

I wanna say the had a .357 magnum at 140 gr with the five sided “Pentapoint” hollowpoint. I think that was the Trooper. That was a very good round as I recall.

Then, the .357 Silvertip was all the rage. The ME in Dallas declared it the best, and that’s what Dallas issued.

 

[WestKentucky]

I wish there were bullets even close to being as good as the ones tested here in 32 caliber. A small caliber revolver can very quickly deliver some power with little recoil and very fast recovery, not to mention the added capacity. There just isn’t enough love in the US to push development of the smaller bores, and the moulds for the proven bullets are scarce with people clinging to them when they find them.

As for the difference between 38 and 9mm it would be nice to have seen the comparison done with 38 revolvers and 38 ammo rather than 38 ammo in a 357. No, there’s not much lost in that small space of freebore, but there is some, and it may have covered a bit of the difference in velocity… and I’m a sucker for a model 10 or 15 coming out to play.

 

[JTHunter]

In reloading, I use 158 grain bullets (SJHP & FMJ) for both .38 Special and .357 reloads. I'm using Win. 296 with both loads being about 0.1grain BELOW a MAX load. The .38 is used in a 2.5" SP-101 and the .357 in a 4" GP-100, as well as a Marlin 1894. I've never tested any of these for penetration or MV.

 

[skoro]

Debate?

Both are effective rounds for SD.

Carry the one that trips your trigger. I like 38+P and I have a couple of 9mm's that I also like. But I usually carry a 38 snub.

I'm OK, you're OK.

 

[fastbolt]

Remember the old Speer Lawman line? The Trooper and Deputy loadings? Yellow plastic hinged boxes.

I wanna say the had a .357 magnum at 140 gr with the five sided “Pentapoint” hollowpoint. I think that was the Trooper. That was a very good round as I recall.

Then, the .357 Silvertip was all the rage. The ME in Dallas declared it the best, and that’s what Dallas issued.

That old CCI yellow box 140gr JHP was one of my earliest personally acquired duty loads. The other was the Federal 125gr JHP .357MAG.

Before I entered LE I used to buy the CCI 140gr JHP as a component and handload an equivalent load. I also remember the small nose cavity as being a "Pentapoint" design.

 

[LAH]

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I suggest not relying on terminal performance tests performed with Clear Ballistics Gel (CBG) for selecting defense ammunition.

CBG is not a realistic soft tissue simulant. Even if CBG calibrates to FBI standard (BB penetration of 8.5cm +/- 9mm at 590 fps), bullets behave differently in CBG than in living soft tissues and properly prepared and calibrated 10% Type 250A ordnance gelatin.

In addition, no two CBG gelatin blocks are alike.

 

[fastbolt]

I suggest not relying on terminal performance tests performed with Clear Ballistics Gel (CBG) for selecting defense ammunition.

CBG is not a realistic soft tissue simulant. Even if CBG calibrates to FBI standard (BB penetration of 8.5cm +/- 9mm at 590 fps), bullets behave differently in CBG than in living soft tissues and properly prepared and calibrated 10% Type 250A ordnance gelatin.

In addition, no two CBG gelatin blocks are alike.

Or ... just keep in mind that clear ballistics blocks understate expansion and overstate penetration ... and might differ from block to block ... and might change when reused ... and

Properly prepared and checked ('calibrated') organic ordnance gelatin isn't an easy thing to prepare and store at the right temperature, and is probably beyond the interest (or capabilities) of the average 'ballistics testing enthusiast'. Not as fun.

Let the big American ammo makers do that sort of testing. Even the road show hosted gel testing starts to step outside the precise confines of using the gel blocks as the temperatures change (sitting in sun or shade) and the same blocks are reused for many shots. Fun, though, and it's been known to influence range staff and sell ammo to agencies.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Properly prepared and checked ('calibrated') organic ordnance gelatin isn't an easy thing to prepare and store at the right temperature, and is probably beyond the interest (or capabilities) of the average 'ballistics testing enthusiast'. Not as fun.

I have experience with preparing, handling, and testing with Type 250A ordnance gelatin.

There's a learning curve, but it isn't difficult.

Given the amount of faulty terminal performance tests being performed by uninformed YouTube bullet testers, I'm preparing to perform tests of defensive handgun ammunition following International Wound Ballistics Association protocol using properly prepared and calibrated 10% Type 250A ordnance gelatin. Tests will include 3-5 shots in bare gelatin and four layer denim covered gelatin.