Ukraine Train
Member
Just wondering if something like this exists. Maybe a lead bullet with a rubber tip or something?
Lethal ammo that won't penetrate airplane skin?
- Thread starter Ukraine Train
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Hypnogator
Member
Once upon a time, when the original air marshals were first assigned, they developed a .38 or .44 Special round that fired a metal "beanbag" filled with, IIRC, lead powder. The projectile would spin and flatten, flying like a pancake, flat side forward. Wasn't accurate past a few yards, but it wouldn't penetrate a hard surface, such as airliner skin, but would penetrate about halfway through a human body.
Haven't heard about those rounds for years.
Haven't heard about those rounds for years.
ChickenHawk
Member
How about the MagSafe fragmenting stuff?
ChickenHawk
ChickenHawk
When the idea of arming pilots after 9/11 was being batted around, numerous people with backgrounds in aircraft maintenance/design, etc. responded that even a goodly number of bullet holes in the skin of an airliner would have virtually zero effect on safety.
Jim Watson
Member
Doesn't matter.
Any pressurized aircraft leaks like a sieve anyhow; plus what is vented for air conditioning. The engine compressor bleed to cabin pressurization and air conditioning has a lot of reserve capacity. A few bullet holes will make no difference. Do a search, this has been discussed at great length before, sometimes by pilots and A.E.s.
In the present climate, I figure the guard should have a gun/ammo powerful enough to shoot through a stewardess to get the terr.
Cold?
Consider the alternative; they scramble an ANG F-16 (flown by an airline pilot doing his active duty stint) and it puts a Sidewinder up the liner's tailpipe.
Any pressurized aircraft leaks like a sieve anyhow; plus what is vented for air conditioning. The engine compressor bleed to cabin pressurization and air conditioning has a lot of reserve capacity. A few bullet holes will make no difference. Do a search, this has been discussed at great length before, sometimes by pilots and A.E.s.
In the present climate, I figure the guard should have a gun/ammo powerful enough to shoot through a stewardess to get the terr.
Cold?
Consider the alternative; they scramble an ANG F-16 (flown by an airline pilot doing his active duty stint) and it puts a Sidewinder up the liner's tailpipe.
Stealthfixr
Member
As a USAF aircraft maintainer, you'd be amazed how 'leaky' your typical pressurized aircraft can be, and still hold 'pressure altitude' at cruising altitude. The whole 'being sucked out through the tiny hole' thing is just a myth at those relative pressures. I might not want a window shot out, but small holes will not change things as significantly as Hollywood would have you believe (other than the noise level--might get a tad loud). I hope the air marshalls carry the good HP stuff, and practice often.
C.R.Sam
Moderator Emeritus
Jim Watson nailed it.
Air available for pressurization far exceeds demand.
And, if somebody did knock a whole window out; it would be an inconvience and not a disaster.
Sam....ATP
Air available for pressurization far exceeds demand.
And, if somebody did knock a whole window out; it would be an inconvience and not a disaster.
Sam....ATP
BluesBear
member
AIUI Skymarshalls used to carry Glaser Safety Slugs. I know I got my first ones from a SM (at a really GOOD price). I think Glasers would be a good choice unless the hijackers are wearing body armor.
There is a new company advertising what they refer to as the perfect round for the job. I don't know about the validity of their claims but their ads make me laugh out loud.
I'm gonna buy some in .45 just for testing purposes but I think it's all smoke and mirrors.
There is a new company advertising what they refer to as the perfect round for the job. I don't know about the validity of their claims but their ads make me laugh out loud.
I'm gonna buy some in .45 just for testing purposes but I think it's all smoke and mirrors.
sm
member
Agree with Jim Watson.
Everything I've asked of pilots, read and learned here,agrees too. Jim's comment is a reality. I also prefer using enough gun, firearm use is to stop immediate threat. Go for the BG, not the airframe...shot placement.
Reality is I'd rather have someone shoot through me to stop that threat, and save many, vs lose all.
If one draws a first breath, one will draw a final one. This is an absolute. Reality and acceptance... about all one can do about it.
Everything I've asked of pilots, read and learned here,agrees too. Jim's comment is a reality. I also prefer using enough gun, firearm use is to stop immediate threat. Go for the BG, not the airframe...shot placement.
Reality is I'd rather have someone shoot through me to stop that threat, and save many, vs lose all.
If one draws a first breath, one will draw a final one. This is an absolute. Reality and acceptance... about all one can do about it.
Moparmike
Member
At $3 a round?I'm gonna buy some in .45 just for testing purposes but I think it's all smoke and mirrors.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Remember to aim for the eyes.
Its for the children you know....
I always thought taht the airmarshals used low penetrating rounds because of the confined quarters of the aircraft and the risk that even a COM shot on a bad guy would work its way down the aisle into the citizens behind the badguy. Punching small holes in the aircraft is really no big deal. But killing people with overpenetrating rounds is.
Brian Dale
Member
c_yeager, "consider the alternative," in Jim Watson's post above.
jar
Contributing Member
I just don't want to be one or two rows infront of the Marshall when he cooks off a couple 40S&Ws or 357SiGs. Imagine for a second what the sound will be in that small enclosed area.
TheFederalistWeasel
member
Current crop of Air Marshals carry 124 grain Gold Dot, .357SIG, they are taught, if able, to close distance and shoot center mass. They are also taught to shoot from sitting positions and not just from isle seats either.
Before an airliner can pass FAA certification it must demonstrate the complete loss of four consecutive windows and be able to maintain a cabin atmosphere while initiating an emergency decent from cruise altitude, also it must demonstrate the loss of one windscreen pane as well. The Boeing 747 was able to loose a complete door and still decent to 10,000 feet safely.
The total loss of a cabin would only come about from catastrophic failure of the pressure vessel such as what happened on that Aloha Airlines 737 a while back, but even then only one person died and she was a cabin attendant who was lost overboard.
A United Airlines 747 also lost a complete cargo door climbing out of Hawaii one night many years back, but several people were lost when the door ripped from its hinges and took a section of seats with it, I think about 10 people? Plane landed safely no one else lost.
Hollywood has twisted the truth and obscured the facts in the name of ticket sales.
Before an airliner can pass FAA certification it must demonstrate the complete loss of four consecutive windows and be able to maintain a cabin atmosphere while initiating an emergency decent from cruise altitude, also it must demonstrate the loss of one windscreen pane as well. The Boeing 747 was able to loose a complete door and still decent to 10,000 feet safely.
The total loss of a cabin would only come about from catastrophic failure of the pressure vessel such as what happened on that Aloha Airlines 737 a while back, but even then only one person died and she was a cabin attendant who was lost overboard.
A United Airlines 747 also lost a complete cargo door climbing out of Hawaii one night many years back, but several people were lost when the door ripped from its hinges and took a section of seats with it, I think about 10 people? Plane landed safely no one else lost.
Hollywood has twisted the truth and obscured the facts in the name of ticket sales.
SDC
Member
Here's a hot of a couple of the rounds that have been tried in this application; left, a .38 Special "Short-Stop" sky marshall round, that fires a shot-filled "bean bag" (unfolded projectile below), and a .45 Auto Glaser Safety Slug. As other posters have pointed out, airplanes are "leaky" to begin with, so even a .45 calibre hole isn't going to cause the plane to come apart in mid-air (like that Hawaiian/Oahu (?) air flight several years ago). If they WERE air-tight, you wouldn't feel the pressure change in your ears when you take-off and land.
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FedWeasel,
I never knew airliners were so safe when it comes to depressurization/hull integrity. I knew that you are more likely to die on the way to the airport than actually in the plane, but this will make better arguments to my (flight-fearful) girlfriend.
I never knew airliners were so safe when it comes to depressurization/hull integrity. I knew that you are more likely to die on the way to the airport than actually in the plane, but this will make better arguments to my (flight-fearful) girlfriend.
Lennyjoe
Member
Not so much worried about holes in the skin.
Its the damage a bullet might do to a fuel cell, hydraulic lines or wire bundles that worries me.
Loose hydraulics and your in a world of hurt.
Shred a bundle of wires and who knows what you disabled.
Loose fuel over the ocean and aircraft quickly becomes a glider for a short time.
Alot of variables when it comes to aircraft. But I would take my chances if it came down to it. Let the bullets fly to kill the badguy.
Its the damage a bullet might do to a fuel cell, hydraulic lines or wire bundles that worries me.
Loose hydraulics and your in a world of hurt.
Shred a bundle of wires and who knows what you disabled.
Loose fuel over the ocean and aircraft quickly becomes a glider for a short time.
Alot of variables when it comes to aircraft. But I would take my chances if it came down to it. Let the bullets fly to kill the badguy.
http://www.pmcgreen.com/ ????
We used this ammo at Gunsite Advanced Carbine so we wouldn't damage the simulators or the steel targets.
We used this ammo at Gunsite Advanced Carbine so we wouldn't damage the simulators or the steel targets.
Serpico
Member
Just get them to eat the airline food...that should take them down quick...
C.R.Sam
Moderator Emeritus
Lennyjoe ...
Airliners are built with double and sometimes triple redundancy of critical items. Hydraulics, electrical, attitude instruments etc.
Very difficult to disable one with smallarms fire.
And considering that fuel requirement is enough to destination plus to alternate plus 45 minutes....even a hole in a fuel cell isn't going to cause enough fuel loss to be of concern unless the weather at both destination and alternate is really stinky. Those engines gobble fuel much faster than a few .45 holes would leak.
Sam....ATP
Airliners are built with double and sometimes triple redundancy of critical items. Hydraulics, electrical, attitude instruments etc.
Very difficult to disable one with smallarms fire.
And considering that fuel requirement is enough to destination plus to alternate plus 45 minutes....even a hole in a fuel cell isn't going to cause enough fuel loss to be of concern unless the weather at both destination and alternate is really stinky. Those engines gobble fuel much faster than a few .45 holes would leak.
Sam....ATP
Jeff OTMG
Member
Joe Zambone did a MagSafe that was nothing more than a copper jacket filled with epoxy driven to high velocity.
RBCD developed one under contract. Here is a link to the article at Armed Forces Journal International:
http://www.afji.com/AFJI/Mags/2001/August/MeteorRound.htm
"Imagine a small-arms bullet powerful enough to punch through armor plate and "bulletproof" glass at typical pistol- and rifle-shot distances, yet smart enough to release its energy the instant it encounters soft tissue. Yes, a bullet that makes light work of armor plate but won't exit a human body.
Now imagine a variant of the same bullet: this one will deliver a devastating strike against an adversary standing 25 feet away, yet it would generally be non-lethal to an innocent bystander 50 feet from the weapon's muzzle."
RBCD developed one under contract. Here is a link to the article at Armed Forces Journal International:
http://www.afji.com/AFJI/Mags/2001/August/MeteorRound.htm
"Imagine a small-arms bullet powerful enough to punch through armor plate and "bulletproof" glass at typical pistol- and rifle-shot distances, yet smart enough to release its energy the instant it encounters soft tissue. Yes, a bullet that makes light work of armor plate but won't exit a human body.
Now imagine a variant of the same bullet: this one will deliver a devastating strike against an adversary standing 25 feet away, yet it would generally be non-lethal to an innocent bystander 50 feet from the weapon's muzzle."
BluesBear
member
Moparmike,
Have you priced that stuff lately?
I already have 100 rounds of .45ACP Glaser in reserve.
Have you priced that stuff lately?
22luvr
Member
Special bullets not necessary
About the only way to get an explosive decompression is to have a major failure of a service or cargo door, much like happened to a United 747 enroute to Hawaii which sucked a couple of passengers out but landed safely. That is morbid but a pressurized cabin could have many holes shot through it with minimal effect. The sky marshalls normally tote SIGs loaded with .357 Sig Speer gold-dot hollow points.....something you can purchase at your own gun shop. I believe RBCD is a round that would disintegrate against hard objects but does major damage to soft tissue.
About the only way to get an explosive decompression is to have a major failure of a service or cargo door, much like happened to a United 747 enroute to Hawaii which sucked a couple of passengers out but landed safely. That is morbid but a pressurized cabin could have many holes shot through it with minimal effect. The sky marshalls normally tote SIGs loaded with .357 Sig Speer gold-dot hollow points.....something you can purchase at your own gun shop. I believe RBCD is a round that would disintegrate against hard objects but does major damage to soft tissue.
ChickenHawk
Member
Which has been repeated in many other movies including the last of (at least we hope it's the last) the Alien movies with Sigourny Weaver.
ChickenHawk
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