Let's call them what they are MODERN.
- Thread starter Owen Sparks
- Start date
- Status
Owen Sparks
member
- Joined
- May 27, 2007
- Messages
- 4,523
The term "militia" has been so tainted by the media in the last decades that it now has a negative connotation to most uninformed Americans who probably could not tell you who the vice president is, much less quote the second amendment.
"Hi tech weapons" may scare some people just the way the Thompson sub machine gun was called "A frightening new killing machine" in the news media of the day. Besides, many people are made uncomfortable by anything "Hi tech" because they simply don't understand it. My Mom is a good example. At 79 she has no use for computers and cell phones and does not want to learn.
To people like this a "high tech weapon" sounds like some kind of star trek ray gun that has "no legitimate sporting purpose" Also, the Tech 9 has received its share of bad press as being "the weapon of choice" of gang bangers.
Modern on the other hand simply sounds up to date. After all, who wouldn't want to drive a modern car, live in a modern house with modern plumbing and a modern kitchen?
For my two cents worth the term "modern firearms" sounds like a better name than any kind of "weapon" so let's simply call them
MODERN FIREARMS
And do it ...(pause for effect)...for the children.
"Hi tech weapons" may scare some people just the way the Thompson sub machine gun was called "A frightening new killing machine" in the news media of the day. Besides, many people are made uncomfortable by anything "Hi tech" because they simply don't understand it. My Mom is a good example. At 79 she has no use for computers and cell phones and does not want to learn.
To people like this a "high tech weapon" sounds like some kind of star trek ray gun that has "no legitimate sporting purpose" Also, the Tech 9 has received its share of bad press as being "the weapon of choice" of gang bangers.
Modern on the other hand simply sounds up to date. After all, who wouldn't want to drive a modern car, live in a modern house with modern plumbing and a modern kitchen?
For my two cents worth the term "modern firearms" sounds like a better name than any kind of "weapon" so let's simply call them
MODERN FIREARMS
And do it ...(pause for effect)...for the children.
waterhouse
Member
My issue with the "assault" term is that assault has the definition, or at least the vernacular usage, of being an attack. This takes away from an important class of firearms: those which are used in defense.
Surely, if my AR-15 is built for assault, my 870 was built for defense, right? I'm still waiting for the "Defense Weapons" bill, where every taxpayer is given a 12 ga. pump shotgun.
Surely, if my AR-15 is built for assault, my 870 was built for defense, right? I'm still waiting for the "Defense Weapons" bill, where every taxpayer is given a 12 ga. pump shotgun.
ctdonath
Member
I'm with ArfinGreebly: most of these "modern" guns are of mostly antique design. The quintessential "modern/assault weapons", the AR15 and AK47, were invented some 50 years ago - early models are officially turning into collectible "relics" (on a C&R license). The modern versions we are excited to get are merely piecemeal refinements (stunted to mere semi-auto) of these antique arms.
Truly modern arms are epitomized by such guns as the FN P90 and HK MP7 - new designs re-invented from bullet onward for ergonomic control of (IIRC) high-pressure, high-velocity, high-capacity, full-auto applications. Unfortunately, federal law 922(o) prohibits to citizens the very function which makes these weapons effective: full-auto. Even availability of the anemic stunted semi-auto-only versions are further limited by their nature of being compact short-barreled rifles, requiring obnoxious paperwork & taxation to obtain*.
While I understand the point of the thread, and agree with the sentiment, I'll be anal-retentive (WITH a hyphen thank you very much) enough to disagree, noting that what we would like to call "modern" is in fact refined reproductions of antique arms. Take grave note that "modern" rifles are flatly forbidden, despite the 2nd Amendment. When someone makes a suitable quip about muskets, remind them that what we are allowed isn't much newer.
* - yes I'm entirely aware that the legal hurdle is merely a sheet of paper and a $200 check and a 2-month wait ... but that's different/difficult enough from simply picking one up over lunch that they remain very rare; the virtual prohibition is working.
Truly modern arms are epitomized by such guns as the FN P90 and HK MP7 - new designs re-invented from bullet onward for ergonomic control of (IIRC) high-pressure, high-velocity, high-capacity, full-auto applications. Unfortunately, federal law 922(o) prohibits to citizens the very function which makes these weapons effective: full-auto. Even availability of the anemic stunted semi-auto-only versions are further limited by their nature of being compact short-barreled rifles, requiring obnoxious paperwork & taxation to obtain*.
While I understand the point of the thread, and agree with the sentiment, I'll be anal-retentive (WITH a hyphen thank you very much) enough to disagree, noting that what we would like to call "modern" is in fact refined reproductions of antique arms. Take grave note that "modern" rifles are flatly forbidden, despite the 2nd Amendment. When someone makes a suitable quip about muskets, remind them that what we are allowed isn't much newer.
* - yes I'm entirely aware that the legal hurdle is merely a sheet of paper and a $200 check and a 2-month wait ... but that's different/difficult enough from simply picking one up over lunch that they remain very rare; the virtual prohibition is working.
Indeed. Few realize there is an appendix to the book "1984", and that it is a guide to eliminating opposition by eliminating words needed to express ideas; I highly recommend everyone read it.
ZeSpectre
Member
Modern firearm with "Standard Capacity" magazines (let the anti's talk about "reduced capacity" for a while, bet they won't like being that obvious).
It all takes me back to this golden nugget of a thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=250306
and the "Glossary"
http://gunlaws.com/pdf/PC'd_Glossary_New.pdf
It all takes me back to this golden nugget of a thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=250306
and the "Glossary"
http://gunlaws.com/pdf/PC'd_Glossary_New.pdf
rickomatic
Member
Gee, wooderson...now you've hurt my feelings. NOT!
But, seirously, besides not being a very "High Road" comment, care to step down off your "senior member" high horse and make your point a bit more clear? What, exactly makes it the "dumbest phrase I've ever heard"? Or, perhaps you have a better suggestion?
rickomatic
Member
Well then, why don't we just call them "Got it cuz it looked cool and I'm a gun nut" weapon?
This thread is about the power of words in the media, and how to inject ourselves into the debate on a larger scale. It's about the perception that words convey. Like it or not, we're living in a media driven society. The "other side" is driving the debate. We're trying to think of ways to counter the negative image thrust on us by the antis.
So, back to the discussion. We know you don't like my suggestion. What is yours?
Carl N. Brown
Member
What about "assault vehicles"?
Like inflatable boats that take outboard motors,
four-wheel drive cars like the Jeep,
short-take-off-and-landing airplanes like the Cesna and Piper,
or helicopters?
"Assault" or "storm" or "sturm" is the military shorthand for
fast, light, compact, mobile.
"Assault weapons" are just fast, light, compact, mobile firearms.
Plus, detachable magazines make them safer to handle getting
in and out of those "assault vehicles".
The problem is the attention-deficient 30-sec-sound-bite fed
typical TV news viewer seems to think the talking heads are
talking about weapons used to commit assaults!
Like inflatable boats that take outboard motors,
four-wheel drive cars like the Jeep,
short-take-off-and-landing airplanes like the Cesna and Piper,
or helicopters?
"Assault" or "storm" or "sturm" is the military shorthand for
fast, light, compact, mobile.
"Assault weapons" are just fast, light, compact, mobile firearms.
Plus, detachable magazines make them safer to handle getting
in and out of those "assault vehicles".
The problem is the attention-deficient 30-sec-sound-bite fed
typical TV news viewer seems to think the talking heads are
talking about weapons used to commit assaults!
Owen Sparks
member
- Joined
- May 27, 2007
- Messages
- 4,523
Thank you Rickomatic.
What if the first amendments freedom of speech applied only to words printed on paper with ink? Think about it. Could the founding fathers ever invision radio, telivision or high speed internet? Isn't there just too much potential for abuse if these technologies fall into the "wrong hands"?
You would want access to modern comunications right? Why would you not want access to a "modern" gun?
OS
What if the first amendments freedom of speech applied only to words printed on paper with ink? Think about it. Could the founding fathers ever invision radio, telivision or high speed internet? Isn't there just too much potential for abuse if these technologies fall into the "wrong hands"?
You would want access to modern comunications right? Why would you not want access to a "modern" gun?
OS
SaMx
Member
I like GPR, like Arfin said. I also like modern firearms. High tech firearms could be good or bad. I can just imagine the Bradys spouting "high tech super effective killing machines" or something to that effect. Modern firearm is hard to turn around that way. Instead of an assault weapon it just a modern general purpose rifle.
I think the biggest key is the meme "just a rifle." when some fudd freaks out when he sees an AR at the range, just reply "relax, it's just a rifle." Whether it's "black rifle" or "modern rifle" or "general purpose rifle" the point is that it is a normal rifle. EBRs should be average.
I think the biggest key is the meme "just a rifle." when some fudd freaks out when he sees an AR at the range, just reply "relax, it's just a rifle." Whether it's "black rifle" or "modern rifle" or "general purpose rifle" the point is that it is a normal rifle. EBRs should be average.
Gun nut aside, that's precisely the explanation I offer for my purchases. Looks good, shoots good, more than I can say for myself. (Alternately, I call them 'rifles' and 'pistols' and 'revolvers.')
Presenting gun owners as harmless hobbyists, plinkers, hunters, sportsmen (shooting and hunting), or even people concerned with the immediate welfare of themselves and their families is far, far less frightening to the great unwashed than the perception that we're a bunch of nuts who think we're getting ready to fend off the Mexican/Chicom/Terra-ist Invasion.
Aside from that angle, you have to assume that the average American is just stupid not to see through such blatant and pointed PR stunts.
You want to do some good through redefinition? Instead of 'assault rifles' and 'huntin' rifles' and 'homeland defense rifles' and "Grandpa's .22" and so on, call them 'rifles.' Emphasize similarities, don't create new classes to separate them.
And then you must outshoot him. I've gotten many a scoff at my RRA Varmint A4 that I got 1-1.5" groups @ 100m with milsurp m193. Funny how the scoffing promptly stopped when I hung my spent paper targets up.
Put up or shut up. My groups didn't take me 17 minutes and 3 barrel cleanings to shoot either QuestionEverything
Member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2006
- Messages
- 178
"Homeland defense rifle" ties into the Orwellian "Department of Homeland Security." A lot of the people you're trying to convince by adopting a new nomenclature don't have a very high estimation of George W. Bush or his new security organization. Using the term to refer to your weapons makes it sound kind of like you fancy yourself a front-line enforcer of Bush's will. "Modern rifles," "self-defense rifles," and "ergonomic rifles" are all much better terms to use.
R127
Member
I don't like the HDR phrase either, but I have used my AK to defend my land and my home a couple times against man and beast.
"Buddy, you don't need that 16+ inch barrel! That's unsporting, giving you obscene levels of accuracy!"
But more seriously: I agree with your sentiments completely.
Michael:
I believe that "high tech" is a bit self defeating, unlike "modern", for several reasons: "high tech" can indirectly suggest that older guns are junk (ban the unsafe old technology! - they're already trying to do this by requiring key locks in the guns!) and at the same time saying that the modern firearm designs are significantly better (and different than the previous versions at what they do (they aren't), meaning they're more dangerous (feeding right into the antis hands).
I am aware of no negative connotation associated with "modern" - at least by the left and those who typically want to ban guns. "modern" seems to have more of a negative or neutral connotation with conservatives, whereas grabbers tend to like terms like "progressive", "liberal", "reasonable", and yes, "modern". In effect, we'd be taking one of "their words" from them in the same fashion that they stole the meaning of "liberal".
The difference being, unlike their theft and destruction of the language, calling them "modern firearms" or similar will be more accurate and neutral than the previous names.
But more seriously: I agree with your sentiments completely.
Michael:
I believe that "high tech" is a bit self defeating, unlike "modern", for several reasons: "high tech" can indirectly suggest that older guns are junk (ban the unsafe old technology! - they're already trying to do this by requiring key locks in the guns!) and at the same time saying that the modern firearm designs are significantly better (and different than the previous versions at what they do (they aren't), meaning they're more dangerous (feeding right into the antis hands).
I am aware of no negative connotation associated with "modern" - at least by the left and those who typically want to ban guns. "modern" seems to have more of a negative or neutral connotation with conservatives, whereas grabbers tend to like terms like "progressive", "liberal", "reasonable", and yes, "modern". In effect, we'd be taking one of "their words" from them in the same fashion that they stole the meaning of "liberal".
The difference being, unlike their theft and destruction of the language, calling them "modern firearms" or similar will be more accurate and neutral than the previous names.
ctdonath
Member
You pick your delusions, I'll pick mine.
Without starting a flamewar, let me note some believe there is a non-trivial chance that several southern states could secede in the near future. If 10% of the local population decides they're just not going to cooperate any more, things will get ugly. A non-trivial portion of the population - on both sides of the possible line - believe this and are preparing accordingly.
You may think modern rifles will not be needed in homeland defense in the near future. I hope you're right. Unfortunately, the repeating history does not agree. Last year that 10% decided to make themselves known three times - and did. They may not be commies, they may not be A-rabs, but they are someone else - and they're here in large numbers, and some among them are pushing for secession/annexation.
To the point of this thread, I don't want to deal with the situation with a musket or other outright antique design - I want a modern rifle. Seems you think you won't be needing yours...
Owen Sparks
member
- Joined
- May 27, 2007
- Messages
- 4,523
Progressive modern guns?
OS
OS
Anteater1717
Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2006
- Messages
- 586
Kel-Tec calls them sport utility rifles.
"Modern Rifle" is a good term and I like it.
"Modern Rifle" is a good term and I like it.
Unfortunately, I think you are right. And my observation is that it's not just in the South. I'd not peg it at 10%, but 2% would be enough, historically speaking, for significant problems (socially, economically, culturally...)
On using the term "modern": you could also just refer to them as "assault weapons" sarcastically, to denigrate and weaken the term. Call a butter knife "assault cutlery" and the like, or call your AR a baby-killing rifle...
munangokeewati
Member
- Joined
- May 23, 2006
- Messages
- 15
I've been calling them Home Defense Weapons for sometime now. That's what most of us intend them for--home and neighborhood defense, as in the aftermath of Katrina and the LA riots. Modern Home Defense Weapons has a nice ring to it.
Ratzinger_p38
Member
Ive always called them carbines.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked