Let's keep it friendly SIG OPINIONS the THR way

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by USMCDK, Apr 18, 2008.

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  1. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    1BLINDREF,

    Where is the P210?

    Nice collection. Looking at the picture it appears you have real P225s not P6s is that correct? Are they W. German or assembled at Exeter?
     
  2. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    IHMO 380 autos are terrible gns for new shooters or people who don't shoot very often. The block back design of the 380 auto coming right back into the hand. they kick harder IMHO then 9mm.

    They are fine guns but tons of the them are bought for the wife and tons are re-sold because the wife does not like the kick. A smaller 9mm is a much better choice.
     
  3. Janos Dracwlya

    Janos Dracwlya Member

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    I have owned a Sig P225 for almost seven years - and it has been my primary carry gun since I bought it. It has never had any problems with accuracy or reliability, it fits my hands like it was made for me. The only thing I can say against it is that there are double stack guns that are the same size or very nearly so - like my Hi-Power and my wife's FNP9M.

    I briefly owned a P226 with night sights and it was by far the best gun I have ever owned. I used it for 3-Gun and as soon as I started using it, my scores went up; I practically couldn't miss with it. No, I'm serious. Like it's smaller brother, it was totally reliable the whole time I had it. I parted with it for personal reasons, not because of any issue with the gun; quite the opposite, really.
     
  4. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    I am a huge Sig fan. I have had or still have tons of them.

    P228 X2
    P225 (not P6)
    P239
    P226 Tactical
    P226 Navy NSW Serial number
    P220 X 2
    P220 SAS
    Sig GSR 1911

    Unfortunately they are not the company they used to be. They are not the old German company that produced the classic P series guns. Instead they are a mix of Kimber execs running a new gun company Sig Sauer which is leveraging the older German made P series products. The Kimberazation of Sig is sad to see. It makes be sad to see it change for the worse.SigArms is Sig Sauer now. They simply changed the name recently. SigArms has existed since about 1985 when they were in Tysons Corner, VA. They were a quality company as Sigarms up until about 2004 or so when they started to be a manufacturer versus and importer of Sig Pistols.The new company is now run by the gentleman who ran Kimber a few years ago. You might remember that. Kimber went from a very good small company making nice 1911s to a massive producer of average 1911 pistols. Customer service and product quality suffered as they focused on sales not the product itself. Many of these new products have had issues as soon as they hit the market. The GSR, Misquito, 556 rifle and current P220 are all examples.

    The GSR had well known teething problems. I own one and love it but do not dicount the fact that they were and still are some what it or miss. The new Sig offering are very ornate. They are a stark contrast from the older P series pistols that they built their reputation on.

    The mosquito is made by a airsoft gun company made out of a Zinc slide and will not feed anything but the most expensive 22LR ammo out there. Also the trigger sucks. It feels like well and airsoft pistol.

    The 556 rifle has been a great dissapointment for many long time Sig fans. Many of the most avid Sig fans are disappointed. They released the rifle at SHOT 2006. They looked promising. Not quite a 550 but they still had time to get it right. Then once it got to market it had the same price point but no iron sights. When the Iron sights came out they were crap not Swiss dopplers that people wanted. The front light and foregrip they are selling looks like it was made in China, which it was by an outsourced vendor.

    If you upgrade to the $2000 SWAT rilfe you get a $75 C-more sight. I cannot believe Sig put a POS C-more on gas piston rifle. What a joke. Not only that if you were lucky enough to get an early one you got an unintentional tutone rifle with a canted rail so when you mount your optics of choice you still can't shoot straight. Now most of the canted rails ans finish issues have been corrected but almost 1 out of every 10 rifles were going back to the factory at one point.

    The P220 has well know extractor issues. These have been occurring since they got rid of all the carbon steel slides and replaced them with milled stainless steel. FTF and FTE are now common problems associated with the P220. The majority are good pistols but if you are putting out thousands a month and about 5% have issues that's lot of problems for someone who claims "HELL AND BACK RELIABLILTY."

    My main issues with the P220 is that Sig denies there is a problem. They deny that there is a design issue yet they have moved to new external extractor design. So which is it? The P220 is perfect as it is, which is what Bill Silver the VP of commercial sales told me or does it need a redesign which is now featured on P220 Elites.

    Now for the good. The P250s look like an interesting pistol with forward thinking design. There have been issues here and there. Seem to remember an issue with the modular firing control fitting in the frame and binding on at least one shooter but nothing systemic. I have not see any real issues that are repeated over and over again. They are new so you have to take that into account. People have not really put them through their paces yet.

    I was not a fan of the trigger. I am not a big polymer guy but I understand and appreciate the concept. I think that this is the future of guns. It is a lot like the Blaser, Sigs high end Rifles, concept. Technically its one gun. a Single frame which can accommodate multiple calibers. By switching parts. You could literally carry one frame 3 barrels mags etc... and have three pistols.

    You can even expand that to different frame sizes. I personally don't have a need for it because I shoot 9mm and 45 only and my needs are met by other guns which soot me better but the concept is great. I would wait to get one. The price is not going up in the next year and there will be a lot more feedback in 6 to 9 months then there is today.

    Those who love Sig and have loved them for a long time understand that change is happening and that thing are not going to stay the same but the one thing that should be constant is the quality of one product.
     
  5. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    This is the case with the high cap SIG's too. The P226, P228, and P229 are all very similar to the P225/P6, and you probably couldnt tell them apart if you were handed one of each with your eyes closed.

    SIG also has some funny ideas as to what "compact" is. Other than the P230, none of their models are really all that different in size when compared side by side in person.
     
  6. MustangHowie

    MustangHowie Member

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    I bought my first SIG in 2005. It was a beat up P226 JJ code(1988) from CDNN that they tried to remove the finish to make a 2 tone. In the process the slide was pitted. I bought it for $300, I figured it was a cheap way to try SIG since I didn't know anything about them. The first time I shot it I was hooked. It was the most accurate 9mm I have ever shot. I then bought a new slide for it to replace the pitted slide. Since then I have bought several more and I have never had a single problem with any of them.

    Sigs.jpg
     
  7. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    This can be said for just about all of them, not just SIG.

    While I agree, the trigger on them isnt what you'd normally expect, its actually better than the P6 imports trigger, and they are "old school" guns. I've owned my Mosquito since they first arrived, as have some of my friends. None of us have encountered the feeding or ammo issues your speaking of, I just shoot plain old Winchester Super X out of mine, and occasionally anything else available. No troubles at all. I also have an early Walther P22, and its been just like the Mosquito, a reliable, fun little gun.

    Hey, I'd love to have a 550 (and even better, a 551) too, and wish I'd bought one when I had a chance, but I'm not spending the money on what they command today. I dont yet have a 556, as I'm waiting for them to maybe come out with a fixed stock version, but from what I've seen, and from talking to a friend that has one, they seem to be decently made and finished.

    I guess I didnt get the word. I have three P220's, two older models and a P220 Carry. I got the P220 Carry when they first came out. Never had a bobble with it. It works just like the old ones and shoots just as good too.


    The problem here is, many of these "issues" are not issues at all, just occasional glitches or a bad gun here and there (all makers do have them), but with the internet, everyone is an expert, even on guns they dont own, but "heard" so much about that its just as good as owning one.

    There is so much misinformation passed on as truth, that it becomes very hard to know what is or isnt. The only way to know for sure, it to buy what your interested in and shoot the hell out of it. If its a dog, you'll soon know, and then you'll be starting to have a right to bitch. You really dont get to have a full right until that same gun has been repaired numerous times or you've bought numerous models and had the same issue.

    As I said before, ALL makers will have an issue with some gun in their lines at some point. I know this to be a fact, because I've bought more than my share of big name guns that were noting but trouble. So far, SIG is one of the few I'm staying with until something turns otherwise.

    So far from what I've seen of the newer guns, and I have six or seven of them now, is that it their quality appears to be just as good as the older models, and in some respects superior.

    Change is always going to be hard for some people and no matter what, they wont like it, even if it was for the better. Oh well, thats life. If you have an issue, cal them up and bitch and at least give them first shot at explaining why and maybe address your's (and other's) concerns. If they dont come around, find something else. There's plenty out there, and very often at more money for a lesser product. But the only way you'll know that, is to wade through them. Been there, done that, taking a breather now. :)
     
  8. 1BLINDREF

    1BLINDREF Member

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    Thanks for all of the kind words and the hatred.....lol :neener:

    Yes they are both P225s (non P6)
    One is a "JE" (1984) code Tysons Corner W.German (the one with the Pachymeyer grips) and the other is an "AC" (2002) code Exeter, NH.
    Both are excellent shooters and the quality appears to be the same.

    I never had a desire to own one, but I wish that I would have bought one back in the 90's when they were a more realistic price. I've never shot one and I don't think that I want too. I'd be affraid that I would like it too much and then I'd have a problem :uhoh: ...lol

    How true.
    I wish they'd come out with a true compact. I'm not a big fan of the .380 and IMHO, the P230/P232 is close enough in size a weight to a P239.
    I'd much rather carry a P239 in 9mm or .40S&W with the American mag release than a P230/P232 with the Euro heal type mag release.
     
  9. 2ndamd

    2ndamd Member

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    I like SIG but, their trigger reset is awful long.
    Maybe the new DAK triggers will be better?
     
  10. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Then, simply send your SIG to the factory to get the short-trigger-reset package (or is it "short-reset-trigger," can't remember ... actually, believe now you can order the assembly and have your local 'smith install it.

    My two cents: I firmly believe that if you're a fan of the .40 S&W cartridge, then you should know that the P-226 in .40 is the perfect package for that round ... And if you're gonna carry a 9mm, then the old W. German P-228 is the pistol for one, the perfect blend of ergonomics (feels great in the hand for most hand sizes, superb balance and points well), gun size to magazine capacity ration (compact enough to conceal well, 15+1 w/Mec-Gars) ...

    SIGs for me have always been, hands-down, the most reliable (never had one malfunction, ever) and accurate (out of the box/factory produced) semi-autos I've owned in almost a half-century of firearms ownership ...
     
  11. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    Or just shoot the dang gun and dont sweat the small stuff. :)

    I never knew there were so many little things I was doing wrong while shooting until there was the internet. It just amazes me I'm not supposed to be able to shoot well with a box stock DA/SA SIG, or a box stock Colt, or a box stock anything for that matter, without all sorts of added gizmos or fancy trigger massages.
     
  12. Erik

    Erik Member

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    My opinion of Sigs?

    Sig has carved out an admirable niche in the firearms market, with a reputation for producing quality arms and repeatedly landing sought after military and LEO contracts. That said, Sig has detractors, but show me a company or design that does not.
     
  13. serrano

    serrano Member

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    I love my P6 - it was born in '86 and I just put 1000 rounds down it in the last 2 months with no issues what-so-ever. I'm currently lusting after a p229r.
     
  14. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    While I agree to an extent there are many issues that are well documented that are not simply one bad gun. The canted rails on the 556 is a perfect example. They were screwing up almost 1 in every 20. That is not bad gun here or there.

    You statement is a contraction. The issues that I have brought up are not single instances. The GSR was hit or miss when it first came out. ALL Sig enthusiast know that. The 556 has serious problems with rails, finish and fit. The mosquito is a problem gun for Sig even today. It is not even made by Sig yet people are paying Sig prices for them. The P22 about on par with the Sig but costs about $100 less.

    The same is the case with the P220 extractor. Its not one every now and then. There are so many documented cases of FTF right out the box on a regular basis. The concept that one should pay $800+ for a new Sig pistol and then find out if its a dog is absurd IMHO. The reason you are paying $800+ for a Sig is so you don't have to deal with that crap. It should not only be an issue after multiple returns. It is an issue right out of the box since they knew about the design problems before they shipped the guns.

    Just because other companies are cheapening their product and lowering their standards does not mean all good companies should. Should Sig jmp off the bridge just because the other companies are? The worst part about it to me is that Sig prices are going up while the overall quality is going down.

    As for the P6 comment I assume that you know the difference between a P225 and a P6. Most people don't. The trigger on the P6 was intentionally heavy. The German police asked for them that way. The DA is almost ridiculously heavy. All you have to do is put a P225 main spring in it and it will lighten up quite a bit.

    I also agree with the other poster that stated that the Sig reset is longer than necessary. I would recommend sending it to Gray Guns instead of Sig. For about $100 more you will get much better results. The factory work is hit or miss. Depends on who pulls your gun out the que. I have had a gun with the AEP service done on it that was great. I have had others that were not so great.
     
  15. Detachment Charlie

    Detachment Charlie Member

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    Now, I Understand

    I never understood the whole Sig mystique. That is until I couldn't pass-up one of those P6's that are dirt cheap now. Got it. Shot it. Before the end of the first magazine, I understood. :cool:
    I also knew about some of the quality issues with the newer Sigs. So, I bought an older, used P220. It just keeps getting better.
    The DA trigger is like rolling through one of my older S&Ws. The SA isn't up to my 1911, but much better than my XD45.
     
  16. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    Since I dont own one, all I can say is, of the half dozen or so I've personally handled, they all seemed to be well made, and well finished. I didnt notice that the rails were canted, not that I was really looking, but if they were, it wasnt obvious. Next time I run into my buddy, I'll have to see how he's making out and if things are any different.

    Just curious, but how many of either have you personally been through to know for a fact that this is the case? Besides myself, I know probably close to eight or ten people who have one or both and used to shoot with them on a fairly regular basis, and no one was complaining of all these so called problems. Usually when you see the threads bitching about them, when you weed out who owns them and who doesnt, the list of complainers goes down considerably.

    As far as what they cost and who makes them, who cares? Where else can you find a gun that is similar to what you shoot big bore in small bore? I really didnt think the cost was all that bad for either. From what I've seen, they have actually come down some in price.

    Again, I have to ask, how many of the new so called problematic P220's do you or have you personally owned that were a problem? If so, was the problem addressed by SIG, or are they still a problem?

    I've owned a number of guns guns from just about every major maker out there, and some have a lot more issues than others, but sooner or later,they ALL have an issue with something. When those issues start being continual, either because they were not fixed or successive guns were also a problem, then I dont buy them any more. If thats the case with you and SIG, then I'd move on.

    All I can say for me is, I havent "personally" encountered any of the problems you keep bringing up with those guns that I actually own, so until I do, I'll be skeptical. Like I said, I've seen a lot of people who never owned and probably never even shot the guns they were bitching about and bad mouth them at every possible opportunity. If you personally have had issues that were not or cant be addressed, then you have a right to bitch, if not, you really have nothing useful to add.

    As for all the crying over what SIG has changed that you dont like, you either have to get over it or move on. If they do in fact have issues with a couple of models, then I'm sure they are being addressed, and if they arent, dont buy them. Its as simple as that. My newer model SIG's, while ever so slightly different looks wise, have worked and shot just like my older model SIG's. when they stop doing that, I'll look for a maker that will accomadte me.

    I've been there with a bunch of other makers before and some I lived with, because they changes were cosmetic, and didnt do anything to affect the guns working, and were easily enough remedied to my satisfaction, although they were annoying to me. Colts specifically were my issue, with their plastic parts on later guns, etc. The thing with the Colts was, they worked out of the box for the most part, just like SIG, old or new, and there were always the purist complainers going off about how far Colt had fallen. The bitch of it was, Springfields and Kimbers, no matter how fancy looking or supposedly impressive they were, they were not as reliable or shootable out of the box as the Colts.

    This is merely your personal opinion. Some may like where SIG,or any of the others have gone. They obviously have been trying to address what people seem to want, just by the number of new models they have been making (as well as some of the discontinued models), even if those things are not to your liking. Again, if you dont like it, just move on. Being bitter about it (and its pretty obvious by your posts your bitter about it), wont make you (or us) feel any better, unless of course, you like feeling that way. If so, by all means, carry on.

    I know the difference. Both of my P6's have the P225's mainspring in them and they both now have a DA trigger that compares to all my other guns. Other than that, there is really little difference between them, at least functionally wise. But then again, theres the "purist" angle.....

    As far as trigger reset, I still think thats a shooter issue and not a gun issue. Most all the "upgrades" people seem to "need" are usually the shooters problem or crutches and not the guns fault. Some things, like the P6's triggers do need addressing, but for the most part, if you cant shoot a gun as it comes out of the box, (unless its a defect) its usually not the guns fault.

    Personally, I dont believe in messing with the basic function of the gun. Once you do, you pretty much always cause yourself problems down the road. You also become more hooked on the need for the crutches. They spend millions of dollars in R&D and tooling, but theres always someone out there with some sort of fix, who knows better, and probably wants to sell you something.
     
  17. Sylvan-Forge

    Sylvan-Forge Member

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    Indeed, quite the snap from the little beasts.


    .
     
  18. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    Okay so by your logic if it does not personally happen to you then it does not matter? If you do not own one then the problems are not real? If it did not happen right infront of you it must not have happened.

    I do not own a Mosquito. I have looked at them and really wanted one but in the end the horrible trigger and the horrible reports on them just about everywhere made me look elsewhere. I mean seriously look around for a minute. Look at the Sig forum.

    http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4721089321

    Very mixed results from owners.

    Lets compare them to a Buckmark

    http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/3611093801?r=9941044801#9941044801

    I am not saying everyone of them will suck I am saying that a good number of people are having issues and have given up on them. Others are simply living with the issues/

    As for the P220 the two W. German P220 functioned without issue. My P220 SAS Failed to Feed right out of the box. I could not get through 75 rounds before I gave up. It went back to Sig and I will have to wait 2 weeks to tell if they fixed it.

    After a very long conversation with customer service and Mr. Bill Silver I have decieded not to buy another Sig product made in the USA ever again. Mr. Silver bit the hand that feeds him. He is the VP of commercial sales and basically bad mouthed the online Sig community. Once I posted and released details of this conversation I have received countless emails regarding the P20 problem. My in box was full of people with similar experiences. Some people got their gun fixed the first time. Others send it back multiple times. Others simply dumped them onto some one else. One of my favorite recent Sig gaffes is the one where they lost a guys defective pistiol, CPO and replaced it will a different CPO, which they shipped with rusted mags and a barrel which looked like it had been dropped on concrete and touched up with black marker. Nothing else for his 3 months of no pistol.

    Now lets keep this thread above board. I am not crying over what SIG is putting out and it appears that yet another thread is going the way of personal attacks.

    As for Sig addressing the issues Sig denies them. People are having issues and Sig is denying them while at the same time redesigning the extractor. I see that as a major contradiction.

    Again you attempt to make it about me not Sig by stating things like. Again, if you dont like it, just move on. Being bitter about it (and its pretty obvious by your posts your bitter about it), wont make you (or us) feel any better, unless of course, you like feeling that way. If so, by all means, carry on.


    Have I attacked you personally? Have I told you want to post about. The more I post my opinion based on what I know to be the truth and what I have experienced the more defensive you get. You then resort to baseless ad hominem attacks.

    Getting back to the guns Sig makes the P6 is a different gun then the P225 in many ways.

    First thing you will notice upon comparing the P225 to the P6 is that the trigger is thicker, straighter and less ergonomics than even sigs standard (as in non-short) trigger.

    The barrels on the many P6's don't reliably feed hollow points, which is why the most popular mod for a p6 is a 225 factory barrel. This is manily with older ones so it is important to check the date of manufacture of any P6 you are getting for self defense. The German police shot ball ammo not hollow points.

    Next the trigger spring is 3-4 pounds heavier in both modes and you should change a trigger spring and the main spring to help smooth is out and lighten it a bit.

    I forgot to mention the hammer difference. The P6 hammer has notch cut into it so that it the German Police smiths new if it was dropped.
    Most Sig will deliver a much better out of the box trigger than the P6. You wont find a P6 that gets close to a standard production trigger from a 225 IMHO, without these modifications.

    As for custom gun smithing by Sig or anyone else I think for certain guns it is a good thing. It offers shooters who desire it a more refined pistol then any factory assembly line can offer. Almost all makers offer "custom sop" pistols that have extra attention paid to them. An after factory smith is doing nothing more than that. Not all people will need or desire this extra attention.

    In the end let keep talking about Sig. All I am going to ask is that we keep it about Sig. Stop the petty little personal digs. Stop taking comments about Sig Sauer personally and stop your ad hominem attacks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2008
  19. caltek1911

    caltek1911 Member

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    I first shot a rental Sig back in 2006 and didn't like it. Not sure of the model. Then I rented a P229 last year while checking various models in .40 and was hooked. One of the guys at the local store knew I was checking out Sigs and when I walked in looking for cleaning supplies after renting it I wound up buying a used P229 .40 in excellent condition that someone turned in for christmas cash. Sig told me that from the s/n, it was made in 1993. Great gun, and I'll be on the lookout for anymore at a good price.

    Sig P229.JPG
     
  20. 2nd 41

    2nd 41 Member

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    My 230SL is a very fine pistol.
     
  21. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    They are great little guns. I just never warmed up to the .380 auto.

    Beautiful looking gun.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. Stephen A. Camp

    Stephen A. Camp Moderator In Memoriam

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    No problems so far with the thread but as is sadly the case, the potential is there and already visible.

    Please do not step over the line. You know what the line is and where it is if you've spent any time at all at THR.

    If you do cross it after the problems mentioned in this resurrected thread's predecessor, and the disclaimer put up by the OP on this one, you will know it when you find yourself permanently banned.

    Again, no one's crossed any lines and everyone's fine so please do not PM me asking if you've done anything wrong. It's hard typing with fractures in one hand and I'm just not inclined to do it any more than is necessary for a few days. Besides, we're supposed to be adults here and the rules do not require a degree in nuclear physics to understand.

    Just a friendly heads up before anyone blows up.

    I am determined to see at least one of these threads continue w/o the rather needlessly argumentative approaches taken by some ruining it for everyone.
     
  23. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    #1, well, yea, thats about right. Kind of selfish, huh? :) #2, if you dont own one that is a problem, then your information is all basically hearsay, and your simply relating something youve heard. I never said there were not problems, simply that many of the problems are more often just repeated hearsay, and not actual experience, and tend to get blown out of proportion. #3, not at all, but it would be nice if the person putting it forth was at least the person who had the difficulties, and was giving a first hand account. If a small group of people in a room cant get the story straight, hows it work on the world wide web? A simple malfunction due to a bad reload turns into the whole line was damned by the devil, and you got it first hand from him, right? Well, his sisters first husbands second wife who drives by their factory and saw the monkees (the singing ones) making them out back, anyway. :rolleyes:

    If there is a problem, I'd certainly like to hear your personal troubles with whatever was the problem, just not the "theres a bazillion posts over at.... and they all said that...."

    By all means, lets keep it above board. Lets also try and keep things real and leave the hearsay and drama out of all this. If you promise to do that, I'll promise to try and not hurt your feelings.
     
  24. Stephen A. Camp

    Stephen A. Camp Moderator In Memoriam

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    Take the personal complaints about each other to the PM's or let it go; I do not care which but do not continue this argument over how or what to post or its relevancy in your opinion on this thread. Having to have the last word could so easily (at this point) really be the last word as a member here.
     
  25. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    Location:
    VA
    When you read he posts you can do all the research from there. You can talk with your favorite dealers. You ask your favorite sellers who move thousands upon thousands of Sigs a year.

    When I read stuff I then contact these guys and ask them what they have seen. Most of the time they either debunk the info or confirm that stuff is coming back. They see tons more guns then I do and they see them in batches. They sell them in batches and so they see trends.

    This pushes the info past hearsay. It becomes confirmed information. No I don't have phone numbers and names but I have verbal conformation from guys who make a decent living selling Sigs among other guns. If you get a lemon what is the first thing you do? You call your dealer and you start asking questions. You say what do we do now? Can you get me an RMA??? Etc.....

    So when you have a good relationship with your dealers they tell you what is really going on. They give you a heads up when the HK P7s are coming back into country. When the 556 is coming out? Colt ARs for a fair price. Plus the real scoop on whatever you are asking about. In the end you will make up your own mind as everyone should. I hope you continue to enjoy the Sigs you have any others that you may obtain in the future.
     
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