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Let's Make These C&R Eligible

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by geolemer, Oct 7, 2012.

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  1. geolemer

    geolemer Member

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    I was thinking, we should make a list and submit it to the ATF, requesting A few select firearms be made C&R. It has been done before and has worked. I would Start the list with a Polish P-83.To me these seem more like a "conversation piece". I doubt we will read in the paper about a crazed man with a pair of P-83's. Also I would suggest the Croatian PHP VM 17 And 9 pistols. I don't see the harm in trying, but if it's a bad idea I'm sure you'll let me know.
     
  2. wojownik

    wojownik Member

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    Quoting from To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

    • Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
    • Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
    • Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

    So, a starting point would be to explain why the P-83 Wanad pistol has historical interest (that is, define why they may be "of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons").

    The P-83 isn't 50 years old yet. Can you get a curator to write to the ATF explaining why it may be of museum interest? And they are not really novel, rare or bizarre (though one could maybe make a weak argument that they are associated with the Cold War, but a hundred other firearms fall under that argument too, so it might be a challenge grounding an argument that a substantial part of the P-83s monetary value lay in it's association with a historical period or figure).

    Not being argumentative ... bureaucracies follow rules and regulations ... to make an argument, you'd need to figure out how the firearm clearly and unambiguously fits any of those criteria. (Bureaucracies also can have their own logic - what is on the C&R list is an interesting read).
     
  3. harmon rabb

    harmon rabb Member

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    Hey they got the Cz82 in there somehow.
     
  4. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    This revolver was done up as a presentation piece and derives nearly all of its value from being novel. I submitted it for inclusion on the C&R list and it was rejected. Good luck. If the ATF had its way there be no C&R qualified guns. Note how they look for any excuse to exclude guns.


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  5. deadin

    deadin Member

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    Find that Federal Museum Curator!!! :neener:
     
  6. Saakee

    Saakee Member

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    The Croatian PHPs seem like they'd have some museum interest since they were created during/for the Croatian struggle for independence, right?
     
  7. AethelstanAegen

    AethelstanAegen Member

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    It helps that the CZ 82 was used by a military of a country that no longer exists (ie Czechoslovakia). This is similar to many of the Yugoslavian arms (for example my C&R M57 Tokarev is only 48 years old).
     
  8. gfanikf

    gfanikf Member

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    Seriously we need to do a Kickstarter form bribi....educational sessions with these people to get them to write letters.

    IIRC it was the head of the West Point Military Museum.
     
  9. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    I would start the list with a Polish P-83.

    What are the differences between the CZ82 and CZ83?

    This revolver was done up as a presentation piece and derives nearly all of its value from being novel. I submitted it for inclusion on the C&R list and it was rejected. Good luck. If the ATF had its way there be no C&R qualified guns. Note how they look for any excuse to exclude guns.

    What am I missing here? Your picture is of an engraved S&W Model 10 that is 43 years old and apparently fully functional. The value of the engraving is debatable. As such it is only a fancy looking shooter.
     
  10. wojownik

    wojownik Member

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    The Czech CZ82 was a sidearm issued by a now non-existent country (Czechoslovakia dissolved into the separate Czech and Slovak nations)

    The CZ83 is a commercial firearm that is still produced in the current Czech Republic.

    The P83 Wanad was a standard issue firearm from the People's Republic of Poland and its current democratic successor. The Polish nation remained, though governments changed.

    So for the CZ 82 the argument seems to be that it was from a Czechoslovak nation ceased to be entirely.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  11. gfanikf

    gfanikf Member

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    So basically we need to destroy some countries....sigh...Monday's are never easy.
     
  12. Trebor

    Trebor Member

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    I remember someone had a proposal to add all "pinned and recessed" Smith and Wesson revolvers to the C&R list. I never heard anymore about it and don't know if he ever actually submitted it.
     
  13. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    BSA1- I am missing what you are missing. A functional gun can't be C&R? What?

    The regs say a gun that derives most of its value from being novel may qualify as C&R. That Model 10 is pretty unique and nearly all of its value (even if YOU don't think it's much value) is derived from its uniqueness. The ATF didn't see it that way. But at least they didn't insult the piece.

    Have a nice day.
     
  14. ErikO

    ErikO Member

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    Aren't some early M-16's eligeable now? lol
     
  15. gfanikf

    gfanikf Member

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    Yes, MGs get added all the time to the list by date or by novelty.

    It means you still have to do the normal legwork, but you can get your MG mailed to your with no need for an SOT.
     
  16. wojownik

    wojownik Member

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    I think the issue is that the C&R status applies to the overall model, not a specific singular firearm. Yes, while that Model 10 may be unique and have its "premium" value derived from its uniqueness, all its other non-engraved Model 10 bretheren do not. So, as a class, the Model 10s do not fit into the C&R list (until they hit 50 years old). Offhand, I recall that the pre-Model 10s are C&R.

    Nice Model 10, BTW... :D
     
  17. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    There are numerous examples of singular firearms in the ATF curio list......many listed by their serial number. If SaxonPig's Model 10 had been owned by Ronald Reagan, AND he has provenance then it might qualify as a "curio". Although beautiful, unless the engraving was done by Leo da Vinci there is little liklihood that his Model 10 would be classified any differently than any other engraved Model 10. Engraved guns are a world to themselves, the most prized being factory engraved, the least (even if beautiful) are those done by Leo da Anonymous.
     
  18. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    The regs say a gun that derives most of its value from being novel may qualify as C&R. That Model 10 is pretty unique and nearly all of its value (even if YOU don't think it's much value) is derived from its uniqueness. The ATF didn't see it that way. But at least they didn't insult the piece.

    I'm sorry I hit a raw nerve with you about your gun.
     
  19. fatcat4620

    fatcat4620 Member

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    How much value do you think it adds? I don't see more than 50 bucks extra. Was it engraved by some now dead world master?
     
  20. CZguy

    CZguy Member

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    Did that need to be said? :scrutiny:

    You're entitled to you opinion, but I can't see any reason for saying that, other than to insult the owner.
     
  21. fatcat4620

    fatcat4620 Member

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    His argument is that his gun should have C&R status because the majority of his guns value was derived from its uniqueness. Truth hurts sometimes.
     
  22. CZguy

    CZguy Member

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    Which was precisely my point. You are more than entitled to your opinion. but what did you accomplish by posting that?

    I'm suggesting that you made a guy feel bad about a gun that he obviously likes. I just don't see the value in that.
     
  23. fatcat4620

    fatcat4620 Member

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    He seemed to not understand why the ATF would not make his gun C&R. I expanded on that and how it may not have been that the ATF does not want to make any guns C&R. Its like a parent getting mad at the teacher because their kid did not get straight As.
     
  24. happygeek

    happygeek Member

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    Personally I don't see any logical reason why all Title I firearms shouldn't be considered C&Rs, but then that'd put at least one guy at the ATF out of a job. Ditto if all Title I firearms were considered sporting.
     
  25. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    I Enjoy reading the single examples listed on the C&R list, and then followed by "presented to senator XXX on XXXX)
     
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