Let's Make These C&R Eligible

[BSA1]

Which was precisely my point. You are more than entitled to your opinion. but what did you accomplish by posting that?

I'm suggesting that you made a guy feel bad about a gun that he obviously likes. I just don't see the value in that.

What the O.P. has failed to state is why having the gun reclassified as a C&R is so important. Transferring a gun through a FFL dealer is not difficult and only costs a small amount..

 

[wojownik]

It's a gorgeous snubby, which might indeed derive a premium value from the custom work, but that in and of itself does not seem to meet the ATF's threshold of being novel, rare or bizarre. It's artistic, but the ATF apparently did not see it as novel, rare or bizarre, or associated with a historical figure.

Why does the poster have to justify why he thinks why having the gun reclassified as a C&R is "so important"? Frankly that's his business, and not unreasonable at least to inquire whether it could have been included in the C&R list. Maybe he just thought it would be neat. Doesn't matter. He asked, and the ATF declined.

 

[fatcat4620]

Which was precisely my point. You are more than entitled to your opinion. but what did you accomplish by posting that?

I'm suggesting that you made a guy feel bad about a gun that he obviously likes. I just don't see the value in that.

What the O.P. has failed to state is why having the gun reclassified as a C&R is so important. Transferring a gun through a FFL dealer is not difficult and only costs a small amount..

Ok, I'm sorry. Lets all hug and sing songs about love and sharing around the campfire.

 

[CZguy]

Ok, I'm sorry. Lets all hug and sing songs about love and sharing around the campfire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl0kwuO0_qc

 

[happygeek]

What the O.P. has failed to state is why having the gun reclassified as a C&R is so important. Transferring a gun through a FFL dealer is not difficult and only costs a small amount.

Maybe a small amount compared to a $1,000 Colt AR, but $30 extra on a $200 CZ82 is a considerable mark up, and for what? What logical reason is there that I can't have a CZ83, or any other Title I firearm, shipped directly to me on a 03 FFL? Because it'd make it harder for the police to trace since the paper trail would go straight to me from the distributor?

I'm a little lost as to why I should be required to pay a 01 FFL to write it in his bound book instead of just writing it in my bound book. It's not that $30, or whatever the going transfer rate is in your local, is an ungodly amount of money, it's more the waste of it.

 

[dogtown tom]

happygeek What logical reason is there that I can't have a CZ83, or any other Title I firearm, shipped directly to me on a 03 FFL? Because it'd make it harder for the police to trace since the paper trail would go straight to me from the distributor?

Because your 03FFL is for COLLECTING curios and relics.......not just any firearm.

I regularly receive C&R eligible handguns for quite a few customers who hold 03FFL's......it saves them $$$$ for me to receive a USPS mailed handgin vs a handgun shipped Overnight FedEx.

 

[happygeek]

Why shouldn't it be good for any Title I firearm? People collect all sorts of guns, not just what the all knowing ATF thinks is collectable. I still don't see the logic.

While we're on that topic, where's the logic in requiring air shipment for handguns?

 

[Saakee]

lessen theft potential by those sticky fingered employees.

 

[dogtown tom]

happygeek Why shouldn't it be good for any Title I firearm? People collect all sorts of guns, not just what the all knowing ATF thinks is collectable. I still don't see the logic.

Because ATF created the 03FFL specifically for those that collect curios and relics.......the criteria intentionally excluded firearms newer than fifty years old.

While we're on that topic, where's the logic in requiring air shipment for handguns?

No Federal law requires handguns to go air.

 

[happygeek]

Because ATF created the 03FFL specifically for those that collect curios and relics.......the criteria intentionally excluded firearms newer than fifty years old.

Which still doesn't make any logical sense. People collect all sorts of firearms, not just ones the ATF thinks are collectable. I still don't see any good reason why 03 FFL holders shouldn't be allowed to have any Title I firearm shipped directly to them. Throwing an extra step in there, i.e. shipping it to someone else so he can write it in his bound book, rather than just writing it in my bound book makes no sense to me. From a post crime let's trace the serial # perspective it still doesn't make sense.

No Federal law requires handguns to go air.

Then why do the distributors insist on shipping handguns via 2 day air when I order them but rifles ship via ground?

 

[Rail Driver]

Then why do the distributors insist on shipping handguns via 2 day air when I order them but rifles ship via ground?

Because the CARRIERS POLICIES require overnight shipment for handguns. Handguns are easily concealed, and thus easily stolen by employees (I know for a fact that UPS does NOT require background checks for individuals working in their ground shipping depots). It's a liability issue, not a legal issue.

 

[dogtown tom]

happygeek

Quote:
Because ATF created the 03FFL specifically for those that collect curios and relics.......the criteria intentionally excluded firearms newer than fifty years old.

Which still doesn't make any logical sense. People collect all sorts of firearms, not just ones the ATF thinks are collectable.

It doesn't have to make sense.....it's government regulation.

"Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons."

Don't like the fact that Glocks aren't C&R?...........write your Congressman.

Then why do the distributors insist on shipping handguns via 2 day air when I order them but rifles ship via ground?

Because USPS regulations only allow dealers and manufacturers to mail or receive by mail, firearms other than rifles or shotguns. Ordinary mortals have to ship handguns via common carrier and the carrier sets its own policies. As 03FFL's are not licensed dealers, they cannot legally receive handguns via USPS. Thats why the distributor who ships you a C&R handgun uses UPS or FedEx.

 

[Rail Driver]

As 03FFL's are not licensed dealers, they cannot legally receive handguns via USPS. Thats why the distributor who ships you a C&R handgun uses UPS or FedEx.

Are you an 03FFL? I believe this statement is incorrect - I will have to research it to confirm, but I'm about 80% certain.

"regular mortals" CAN *RECEIVE* handguns via USPS in certain instances such as when they are shipped by the manufacturer as in warranty work, so that part of the statement is at least partly incorrect.

 

[happygeek]

It doesn't have to make sense.....it's government regulation.

Sadly true. I'll put that in my next letter to my Senator, as the current system makes less than no sense.

Thanks for the clarification on UPS/Fed Ex shipping policies.

 

[dogtown tom]

Rail Driver

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
As 03FFL's are not licensed dealers, they cannot legally receive handguns via USPS. Thats why the distributor who ships you a C&R handgun uses UPS or FedEx.

Are you an 03FFL? I believe this statement is incorrect - I will have to research it to confirm, but I'm about 80% certain.

I hold an 01FFL (Dealer) but several years ago I had my C&R.

Stay with me 'cause USPS regs are more of a maze than ATF regs could ever hope to be. I'll highlight in red the good stuff.

Regs regarding the mailing of firearmsare found at this link:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#1198527

12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:

a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1h.

So.........the parties in 12.1.3? Licensed dealers, manufacturers, importers and authorized agents of federal and state governments can ship handguns to military and police officers for official duties. 12.1.5 covers shipments between dealers, manufacturers and importers to each other.


So.....the handguns that collectors can mail under 12.1.h? Antique firearms.
"12.1.h (in part) Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof........."

"regular mortals" CAN *RECEIVE* handguns via USPS in certain instances such as when they are shipped by the manufacturer as in warranty work, so that part of the statement is at least partly incorrect.

Nope. The manufacturer CAN return a repaired or replaced firearm via common carrier to the owner, but as 12.1.5 & 12.1.6 says they can only MAIL to other dealers, manufacturers or importers.

12.1.6 Certificate of Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers
A federal firearms licensee manufacturer, dealer or importer need not file the affidavit under 12.1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer, dealer or importer of firearms. The mailer must also state that the parcels containing handguns, or parts and components of handguns under 12.1.2d, are being mailed in customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of their knowledge the addressees are licensed manufacturers, dealers or importers of firearms.

 

[SaxonPig]

Good Lord.

1. I didn't expect the ATF to approve my request. I did it for fun. I was pretty sure it would be denied, but I thought "What the Hell?" I was not crushed by the rejection. As noted many individual guns are listed.

2. All things are subjective. Some people don't like engraved guns. Some people don't like my engraved guns specifically. I don't give a rat's ass. I don't need their approval for anything I do or own. But the $50 comment was fairly offensive. But, some people are like that. I have suffered worse boors.

This revolver was engraved and fitted with ivory stocks by my wife as a 50th birthday present to me. I believe the value is much more than $50 over a standard Model 10 and in reality the monetary value is just as irrelevant to me as are the opinions of oafs. I like it... and that's all that matters.

 

[SaxonPig]

PS: Anyone who dislikes my engraved S&W will probably also show disdain for my engraved Colt. The engraving was a present from my mother who died five days later. This is another one with value that transcends mere money.

 

[fatcat4620]

Good Lord.

1. I didn't expect the ATF to approve my request. I did it for fun. I was pretty sure it would be denied, but I thought "What the Hell?" I was not crushed by the rejection. As noted many individual guns are listed.

2. All things are subjective. Some people don't like engraved guns. Some people don't like my engraved guns specifically. I don't give a rat's ass. I don't need their approval for anything I do or own. But the $50 comment was fairly offensive. But, some people are like that. I have suffered worse boors.

This revolver was engraved and fitted with ivory stocks by my wife as a 50th birthday present to me. I believe the value is much more than $50 over a standard Model 10 and in reality the monetary value is just as irrelevant to me as are the opinions of oafs. I like it... and that's all that matters.

Good wife you got there.

 

[Rail Driver]

Stay with me 'cause USPS regs are more of a maze than ATF regs could ever hope to be. I'll highlight in red the good stuff.

Regs regarding the mailing of firearmsare found at this link:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#1198527

Nope. The manufacturer CAN return a repaired or replaced firearm via common carrier to the owner, but as 12.1.5 & 12.1.6 says they can only MAIL to other dealers, manufacturers or importers.

No kidding. Well, when I'm wrong and it's proven, I'm not too proud to admit it.

To be fair, though, I never dug through the postal regulations, only the ATF regulations - Apparently Rossi and Kel-Tec have never studied the postal regulations either, though, because (and this is the primary reason I thought that it was legal) both have returned handguns (a Rossi .357 and a Kel-Tec P11) directly to me via U.S. Postal mail. I guess manufacturers are just as prone to mistakes as the rest of us.

 

[SaxonPig]

Yes, ONLY FFL dealers and manufacturers can send pistols via US Mail. This allows Fed-Ex and UPS to gouge us with $100 charges to ship a handgun.

 

[dogtown tom]

Rail Driver ....Apparently Rossi and Kel-Tec have never studied the postal regulations....

KelTec is the worst at advising customers to violate USPS regs or common carrier tariffs.....they regularly tell customers to label the box "machine parts" or just drop it in the mail.

I think they know the regulations.

 

[BSA1]

No kidding. Well, when I'm wrong and it's proven, I'm not too proud to admit it.

To be fair, though, I never dug through the postal regulations, only the ATF regulations - Apparently Rossi and Kel-Tec have never studied the postal regulations either, though, because (and this is the primary reason I thought that it was legal) both have returned handguns (a Rossi .357 and a Kel-Tec P11) directly to me via U.S. Postal mail. I guess manufacturers are just as prone to mistakes as the rest of us.


Just two weeks ago I had a S&W Customer Service Representative tell me I could return a revolver to them for repair via USPS. So it not just Rossi and Kel-Tec that don't know the law.

I did send the gun to them through USPS. Only I went through a FFL dealer and because it was cheaper than UPS and Fed-Ex.