Let's talk about 45-70 Trapdoors!

[Kevin Rohrer]

Buy Lyman #50 and the Hornady manuals; all your questions will be answered. They have sections on the different types of 45-70 loads.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I own and shoot an original Trapdoor rifle and my current favorite load is a 405gr cast bullet (coated or not) over a charge of 29.0gr AA5744. That load is very accurate in my rifle and generates low recoil in comparison to other loads I've built.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

There will be some who suggest pistol powders like IMR4227

Somebody better call Hodgdon's and tell them their website is all messed up. They have Improved Military Rifle powder (IMR) 4227 listed as... a RIFLE powder!

Let's try to avoid confusing opinion with information when possible, okay?

IMR # 4227 replaced IMR # 1204 in 1935 for small capacity rifle cartridges like the .22Hornet. and the older, small-case WCF lever-gun cartridges, .25-20, .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40. When IMR 4227 was developed, there was no such thing as "a magnum handgun."

Lyman's manuals from the Ideal days to the mid-80's listed IMR 4227 as a medium range, light recoil, .45-70Gvt powder for Trapdoor rifles under a 405gr. bullet. It's not an odd combination and the OP did ask for light recoil loads appropriate to the 1873 NOT Ruger No.1 or Marlin 95 loads.

 

[Dane R. Marley]

View attachment 1031431 my should hurts after 5 of these loads 405gn hardcast

Is that a Trapdoor Load or a Ruger #1 Load that is hurting your shoulder?

 

[Mark_Mark]

Is that a Trapdoor Load or a Ruger #1 Load that is hurting your shoulder?

all #1 load hurts and give me a concussion

 

[EricBu]

Now the question is: cast, swaged or jacketed?

99% coated cast. Maybe some jacketed in their somewhere, but mainly 405 coated cast.

 

[EricBu]

Buy Lyman #50 and the Hornady manuals; all your questions will be answered. They have sections on the different types of 45-70 loads.

Have plenty of books, and no questions....other than looking for member pet loads.

 

[EricBu]

I own and shoot an original Trapdoor rifle and my current favorite load is a 405gr cast bullet (coated or not) over a charge of 29.0gr AA5744. That load is very accurate in my rifle and generates low recoil in comparison to other loads I've built.

So this interests me. AA5744 may be easier to get right now than 4198. What kind of velocity are you getting with that load out of your original trapdoor? This is super helpful data here!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

99% coated cast. Maybe some jacketed in their somewhere, but mainly 405 coated cast.

This thread had me lookng. Remington no longer makes the Core-Lokt 405gr. JSP. That was my favorite bullet for the old .45Govt. I can't get 400's from GT until they get caught up on panic-era orders but it's a SUPER hunting bullet for lead. They use 2-2-96 alloy and gas checks on their 400gr. WFN-HP. Over 28gr. of IMR 4227 it's good for 100yds. on whitetails. I hit a boar hog with one in the gut just behind the last rib once. Not good. Messy and I lost some meat. He went down like he'd been hit by lightning, tho.

 

[EricBu]

This thread had me lookng. Remington no longer makes the Core-Lokt 405gr. JSP. That was my favorite bullet for the old .45Govt. I can't get 400's from GT until they get caught up on panic-era orders but it's a SUPER hunting bullet for lead. They use 2-2-96 alloy and gas checks on their 400gr. WFN-HP. Over 28gr. of IMR 4227 it's good for 100yds. on whitetails. I hit a boar hog with one in the gut just behind the last rib once. Not good. Messy and I lost some meat. He went down like he'd been hit by lightning, tho.

Well, if you are in the market....MBC makes a great 405 grain bullet, and it's my goto 45-70 bullet. They are shipping almost immediately now.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

So this interests me. AA5744 may be easier to get right now than 4198. What kind of velocity are you getting with that load out of your original trapdoor? This is super helpful data here!

Sorry, I have yet to send any rounds over a chrono but Lyman 50 lists a velocity of 1317 fps from a 24" universe receiver. The Western Powder manual lists the velocity @ 1392 fps from a 24" barrel with a lower charge of 27.0gr under a 405gr cast bullet.

Sorry I can't give you real life velocity readings.

 

[Charlie98]

Somebody better call Hodgdon's and tell them their website is all messed up. They have Improved Military Rifle powder (IMR) 4227 listed as... a RIFLE powder!

Let's try to avoid confusing opinion with information when possible, okay?

IMR # 4227 replaced IMR # 1204 in 1935 for small capacity rifle cartridges like the .22Hornet. and the older, small-case WCF lever-gun cartridges, .25-20, .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40. When IMR 4227 was developed, there was no such thing as "a magnum handgun."

Lyman's manuals from the Ideal days to the mid-80's listed IMR 4227 as a medium range, light recoil, .45-70Gvt powder for Trapdoor rifles under a 405gr. bullet. It's not an odd combination and the OP did ask for light recoil loads appropriate to the 1873 NOT Ruger No.1 or Marlin 95 loads.

Soooo... I'm guessing you believe the 'new and improved' nonsense on cereal boxes, right?

IMR. Improved Military Rifle powder. Sooo... every powder marketed under the IMR nomenclature was used as a MILITARY powder? Right? Every powder marketed under the IMR nomenclature has never been used in a pistol cartridge? Right?

So, let's try to avoid using confusing opinion with information when possible, okay?

IMR4227 is a rifle powder... sure. But in 2021 it is not really considered so.... by all accounts it is a very slow PISTOL powder, ranking right there with 2400, W296/H110, and others. Is it usable in rifle cartridges? ...of course it is, and I have stated such. I've used it under cast in all my .30's, my .348WCF, and, of course .45-70... but it is NOT my powder of choice for those purposes, in much the same manner as I don't normally recommend Unique, 2400, and other pistol powders for rifle cartridges... even though they can be used as such.

As far as...

the OP did ask for light recoil loads appropriate to the 1873 NOT Ruger No.1 or Marlin 95 loads.

...I provide such, using IMR4198 as an example....

I load and shoot a Pedersoli 1885 in .45-70, IMR4198 is the best thing going... although good alternatives are H4198, AA5744, and RL7. You can easily tailor your load to your velocity target (or your recoil threshold... )

With 405grn cast bullets, 30grn IMR4198 give me 1275fps (out of the 32" 1885, your shorter barrel obviously not...) and 35grn 1500fps.

There will be some who suggest pistol powders like IMR4227, 2400, Unique, RedDot, and TrailBoss. Although I have tried some of those, I'm more inclined to just stick with true rifle powder... but that's me.

...I never EVER suggested loading IMR4198 to #1 or 1895 loads... so stop your nonsense.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Soooo... I'm guessing you believe the 'new and improved' nonsense on cereal boxes, right?

IMR. Improved Military Rifle powder. Sooo... every powder marketed under the IMR nomenclature was used as a MILITARY powder? Right? Every powder marketed under the IMR nomenclature has never been used in a pistol cartridge? Right?

So, let's try to avoid using confusing opinion with information when possible, okay?

IMR4227 is a rifle powder... sure. But in 2021 it is not really considered so.... by all accounts it is a very slow PISTOL powder, ranking right there with 2400, W296/H110, and others. Is it usable in rifle cartridges? ...of course it is, and I have stated such. I've used it under cast in all my .30's, my .348WCF, and, of course .45-70... but it is NOT my powder of choice for those purposes, in much the same manner as I don't normally recommend Unique, 2400, and other pistol powders for rifle cartridges... even though they can be used as such.

As far as...

the OP did ask for light recoil loads appropriate to the 1873 NOT Ruger No.1 or Marlin 95 loads.

...I provide such, using IMR4198 as an example....



...I never EVER suggested loading IMR4198 to #1 or 1895 loads... so stop your nonsense.

The screen shot is from 2021. Your personal attack is unnecessary.