Let's talk bear guns for a moment

[MaxP]

Puzzled by what? Defense against bears being short range? Shotguns (you know people DO hunt with them to?)

I hope you also understand bears are NOT CAPE BUFFALO. Their skulls are no where near that thick.

There is also a difference between hunting and self-defense. One can take a bear at 100 yards.. that is hunting as there is no danger to oneself. Stopping a charging bear is self-defense and usually is within 10 yards are so (like 30 feet.)

Deaf

You're the one who drew the distinction. That is your quote. Clarify please. Do you hunt with handguns? I only ask to gain perspective of your opinion. Yes, I do know that bears are not Cape buffalo -- at least the ones I've shot with handguns weren't that I can recall.

 

[Deaf Smith]

You're the one who drew the distinction.

What? Distinction between hunting and self-defense? Do you somehow think I don't like hunting with handguns??? And if you read this whole thread I pointed out SA revolvers would work for bear defense (as would DA or semi-autos or shotguns for that matter.)

But I tell you, a properly loaded 12 gauge will shoot way though a bear, any bear.

Hunt with a handgun? Hunt what? I've used my 629-1 to hunt deer (this one below) but usually I use a rifle.

Shot squirrels, rabbits, snakes, and other critters over time with handguns from .22 to .357. And when in such as Crockett National Forrest I pack a handgun (this being one of them below.)

But I sure don't do all my hunting with a handgun.

Deaf

 

[RalphS]

I get 1250-1300 fps with 200 gr hardcast from the 10mm.

Maybe, with a 5 or 6 inch barrel, but I seriously doubt that this is true with a G29

 

[ECVMatt]

I'll try and get back on the subject. Arguing about DA, SA, or Auto seems a bit crazy to me. I think if someone prefers one style over the other and shoots better with that particular system, then that's probably the way they should go.

I have a Glock 20, several Ruger SA's, a Redhawk, an Alaskan, and recently got a Smith 69. I took the 20 on a 10 day moose hunt to AK and although I felt OK with it, it had some drawbacks. Since the OP is not asking about autos, I will not go into them in depth.

I have owned my Redhawk since I was about 14 and have shot the heck out of it. I have tried several different grips, but settled on Pachmayr Presentations. I am now 48, so I would say the Redhawk is a pretty sound design.

I got the Alaskan to replace the 20 on my next moose trip. Most of our "visits" were at night and while we were in the tent. I felt if needed, it would be much easier to grab the Alaskan and begin to fire. I left the Houge tamer grip on it and it is very easy to fire six rounds quickly. Mine is a .44 loaded 320 grain bullets. The trigger is far superior to the Redhawk and it shoot surprisingly well for such a short barrel. I really love this one.

Recently I picked up a Smith 69. I have not shot any heavy weight bullets through it yet, but really like the gun. I plugged the Hillary Hole, which made it a moot point. It is accurate, very easy to carry, and very well balanced. I am liking it more and more.

Lastly comes my beloved SA Rugers. I have lots of them in various calibers up to .475. Most of mine are Bisleys. I would feel just fine with one of these, but I am just a bit more comfortable with the DA for what we experience up there. They guys I hunt with are not experienced with the SA, so that is a drawback.

My hunting buddies are not really handgun shooters either, but they all have some type of DA .357. This adds to the appeal of the DA revolver. They are all familiar with its basic function, have shot many round through their own .357's, and feel comfortable with it. Neither of them liked to take the Glock out at night when nature called. They would generally take the round out the chamber and leave the loaded magazine inserted. This was a pain to keep loading and unloading the gun at night while we were freezing (that's another story). I would say that you are on the right track with your initial choices, although you might add/take a look at the S&W 69. I would attempt to shoot them first if possible and then pick what you like the best. I think this is more important than being set on one system or the other.

Hope this helps,

Matt

 

[CraigC]

Black Magic Slugs for penetration? Oh, I think they penetrate enough.

But when one says shotgun slugs won't do, well I beg to differ.

Where did I EVER say that slugs don't work??? I never did, in any thread, on any forum. I simply stated that they are not as effective as people think, they are not as effective as a big bore rifle or even a revolver. Contrary to popular opinion, shotgun slugs are not more effective than a properly loaded revolver. Their penetration is significantly less than either and that is a fact not refuted by the video you posted, which I had already seen. A slug may work perfectly fine but this silly notion that it is the best choice for anything is just absurd. It has everything to do with popular perception, not merit.

Shotguns are easy and cheap. You can get a decent pump shotgun for well under $300 and they're easy to operate. It's easier to hit with and easier for most people to manipulate. Far easier than to become proficient with a big bore revolver. Most people already have one and most law enforcement agencies already issue them. That's why they're recommended and that's why they're used by law enforcement for problem bears, not because they're the best tool for the job. In most cases, it's all they have and it's either that or a 9mm service pistol. By their own words, they would prefer .375's but those cost four to five times as much and are a specialized tool useful for little else.

 

[GRIZ22]

See, that kid should have been armed.

How about a S&W model 69? I guess for open carry, I don't worry about the weight of the gun. I'd look for a 4 or 5" 629. Mountain Gun is a good idea too. Super light weight 44 mags don't sound appealing to me.

I never saw much sense in lightweight 44 magnums either. The idea behind them them seems to be that it makes it easier to carry so you'll have the gun when you need it. If you need it you probably need to shoot it fast. After the first round that extra recoil from the light weight will slow down your recovery time. Thats laws of physics extensive practice or greater skill isn't going to change.

As for the SA/DA revolver debate I know a skilled SA shooter can shoot as fast or faster than the average DA shooter. For the first 5 or 6 rounds anyway. That will do for most bear situations as you will likely have no chance for a reload. Throw a possible need for a reload into the mix and that changes selection criteria a good deal.

You'll more likely need that magnum revolver to defend against two legged attackers than a bear. That would give the DA revolver an advantage to anyone, skilled SA shooter or not. SA revolvers are best suited for shooting medium to large non-dangerous game. That's about the only thing I'd recommend them for.

JMO

 

[dickydalton]

I can shoot my 44 mag. Mountain Revolver quite well and I would carry it. I was shooting my 460 XVR Smith Monday and know that I couldn't shoot it rapidly for spit. I know that a 360 grain hardcast LBT @ 1700 FPS will do the job better than the 44 but not better than 6 of them.

 

[CraigC]

I can shoot my 44 mag. Mountain Revolver quite well and I would carry it. I was shooting my 460 XVR Smith Monday and know that I couldn't shoot it rapidly for spit. I know that a 360 grain hardcast LBT @ 1700 FPS will do the job better than the 44 but not better than 6 of them.

In my testing, two .44Mag loads penetrated better than the 360gr .45. You get to a point where velocity works against you. I'd throttle that 360gr back to 1300fps and call it a day.

 

[MCMXI]

I've had my heart set on a Ruger Redhawk for a long time, but today was the first time I actually held one. That. Grip. Sucks. (4" model w/ rubber grip)

My Redhawk came with the Hogue Bantam grip and I agree that it kind of sucks. The problem for me is that it positions my fingers fairly well but it's on the deep side (front to back) and a bit fat so it feels odd. I wonder how many people actually like that grip. If you have an Alaskan or GP100 with the Tamer or Monogrip which both feel really good in the hand, and then you pick up a Redhawk with the Bantam grip it makes the RH feel even worse by comparison. I recently ordered a Hogue Monogrip for the RH and don't know what Hogue was thinking. The finger spacing is totally unnatural for me in that is splays my fingers too far apart unlike the Monogrip on the GP100 or Alaskan which feels perfect. Yesterday I decided to have a go at improving the Bantam grip and it's a lot better than it was. I used a round file to extend the finger grooves around to the left side of the grip and deepen the grooves a little. It was easy to do and the grip feels a lot better. I figured that it's cheap enough to replace the grip if I messed it up and there's plenty of material there to work with. Now on to load development with a 340gr WFN hardcast bullet.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

In my testing, two .44Mag loads penetrated better than the 360gr .45. You get to a point where velocity works against you.

How do you mean Craig? As in there is a detriment to the terminal ballistics or as in your split times between shots become far too slow?

 

[RalphS]

My Redhawk came with the Hogue Bantam grip and I agree that it kind of sucks.

You might want to look for a Butler Creek / Uncle Mikes grip for the Redhawk. They are out of production but sometimes become available on forums. http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/1287770.htm

 

[MCMXI]

You might want to look for a Butler Creek / Uncle Mikes grip for the Redhawk. They are out of production but sometimes become available on forums.

Thanks for the tip but I do prefer the monogrip concept and am much happier with the Bantem grip now that I've shaped it more to my liking.

 

[CraigC]

How do you mean Craig? As in there is a detriment to the terminal ballistics or as in your split times between shots become far too slow?

You get to a point where you overpower the bullet. When the nose starts to deform, you start losing penetration. You can actually get more penetration with less velocity.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Interesting thing tonight gang. Just saw a show, Alaska Troopers, on cable, where one of the Alaskan Game Wardens had to find a dead bear that was supposedly shot illegally. He donned his gear to go... what did he take for bear protection? Pepper Spray? Handgun? Shotgun? Elephant Rifle?

Well he took a Remington 870 with 'tactical stock' (fixed stock with pistol grip), Ghost ring sights, Tac-Star six shot side saddle, and slugs. Yes slugs. And he used a one point sling.

All the time he was out there he talked about Brown and Grizzly bears (the area had been baited with honey). He kept his eyes pealed and that 12 gauge was hanging down right in front of his vest the whole time.

So that is what Alaskan Game Wardens use. Oh, and he never did find that bear!

Deaf

 

[PabloJ]

Interesting thing tonight gang. Just saw a show, Alaska Troopers, on cable, where one of the Alaskan Game Wardens had to find a dead bear that was supposedly shot illegally. He donned his gear to go... what did he take for bear protection? Pepper Spray? Handgun? Shotgun? Elephant Rifle?

Well he took a Remington 870 with 'tactical stock' (fixed stock with pistol grip), Ghost ring sights, Tac-Star six shot side saddle, and slugs. Yes slugs. And he used a one point sling.

All the time he was out there he talked about Brown and Grizzly bears (the area had been baited with honey). He kept his eyes pealed and that 12 gauge was hanging down right in front of his vest the whole time.

So that is what Alaskan Game Wardens use. Oh, and he never did find that bear!

Deaf

Wilson Combat offers shotguns like that. Another great choice would be large bore lever gun. I read they make Africa capable ones on Marlin action in calibers I do not remember as articles were published years ago in Precision Shooting Magazine. I think Turnbull Restorations may still offer guns like these. Bigbore Marlin with ring rear sight is what I would choose to carry where brown bears are found. Marlin made were called Guide Guns. Browning BAR in .338Magnum with rear battue sight (found on some guns sold in Europe) would also work.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Wilson Combat offers shotguns like that. Another great choice would be large bore lever gun. I read they make Africa capable ones on Marlin action in calibers I do not remember as articles were published years ago in Precision Shooting Magazine. I think Turnbull Restorations may still offer guns like these. Bigbore Marlin with ring rear sight is what I would choose to carry where brown bears are found. Marlin made were called Guide Guns. Browning BAR in .338Magnum with rear battue sight (found on some guns sold in Europe) would also work.

Might very well have been a Wilson. It had Ashley ghost ring sights.

Deaf

 

[Phaedrus/69]

This is a timely thread that saves me the embarrassment of starting a new thread. Normally I find the topic of guns for bear defense to be entertaining but not relevant to me since I split my time between MN and SD. But in the next couple weeks I'm planning a hiking and camping trip to MT. The one guy I know there mentioned that there is a fair bear population there. Doing a bit of reading, I see that pretty recently a man was attacked and the woman he was with killed by a bear, and the guy's bear spray didn't have any effect. While it statistically seems to work well there's a growing body of evidence that predatory bears attacks are not dissuaded by as effectively as we have been told. It seems that it will often chase away the bear but it will return to "test" the prey (ie you). They seem to be recover fairly quickly.

I do plan to pick up bear spray but I will have a gun as well. My Enhanced SD Permit is honored by WY, MT and ID so I will be carrying the whole trip. The problem is that my biggest sidearms are 9mm. Not great for grizzlies although with 147gr +P FN-FMJ from Underwood I'd take my chances against black bears.

The S&W Model 69 is under $700 and by all accounts a good gun but aside form the ten days I'll be out west I don't have much use for a .44 Mag. Since my only wheelgun is a .38 Special I'd have a steep learning curve to get good enough with the 69 to do me any good if the fur flies. My brother has a Browning BPS in 12ga which would be comforting in camp but he won't carry it on the trails.

FWIW I think the Brenneke Special Forces slugs penetrate even better than the Black Magic.

 

[CraigC]

Interesting thing tonight gang. Just saw a show, Alaska Troopers, on cable, where one of the Alaskan Game Wardens had to find a dead bear that was supposedly shot illegally. He donned his gear to go... what did he take for bear protection? Pepper Spray? Handgun? Shotgun? Elephant Rifle?

Well he took a Remington 870 with 'tactical stock' (fixed stock with pistol grip), Ghost ring sights, Tac-Star six shot side saddle, and slugs. Yes slugs. And he used a one point sling.

All the time he was out there he talked about Brown and Grizzly bears (the area had been baited with honey). He kept his eyes pealed and that 12 gauge was hanging down right in front of his vest the whole time.

So that is what Alaskan Game Wardens use. Oh, and he never did find that bear!

Deaf

And what were his choices? If someone starts trying to break in the back door of my home and I grab a Henry .22LR because it's the closest firearm to me and use effectively to stop the threat, does that mean it's the best choice for the job? Uh, no.

 

[MCMXI]

I do plan to pick up bear spray but I will have a gun as well. My Enhanced SD Permit is honored by WY, MT and ID so I will be carrying the whole trip.

You don't need any permit to open carry a handgun in MT whether you're a resident or not, and only need a permit to carry concealed when you're in city limits, resident or not.

https://dojmt.gov/features/frequently-asked-firearms-questions/

The woman killed recently by a black bear was up in Alaska but it's not clear how or when the bear spray was deployed. There have been two bear fatalities up here in NW MT in the past couple of years and Glacier National Park has LOTS of big bears.

 

[WrongHanded]

For what it's worth, I bought a Redhawk with a 5.5" barrel a little while ago. It came with wooden stocks that I wasn't sure I could shoot well with, so I bought the hogue monogrip. The monogrip was easier to shoot with initially, but I switched back to compare and after a few cylinders found that the wooden stocks were much better for me. The hogue allowed to me hold the gun down better, but the wood let's it roll up to shed the recoil. With a little practice, I found getting back on target wasn't a problem. I shot a box of HSM 305gr Bear Load like that and it went okay.

So I wouldn't rule out the Redhawk. Just consider getting some wood to replace the rubber.

 

[MCMXI]

... what did he take for bear protection? Pepper Spray? Handgun? Shotgun? Elephant Rifle?

Bear protection? More like bear hunting which I think is a different situation to the one that many here are discussing.

 

[Deaf Smith]

And what were his choices? If someone starts trying to break in the back door of my home and I grab a Henry .22LR because it's the closest firearm to me and use effectively to stop the threat, does that mean it's the best choice for the job? Uh, no.

So a 12 gauge is a .22 as for bear? Are you kidding? He also had his service pistol, a Glock 22 in .40 S&W. Geeze guys, somehow I think you guys think a 12 gauge is flicking marbles at the bears.

Bear protection? More like bear hunting which I think is a different situation to the one that many here are discussing.

No, the Game Warden talked while the show was going on about Browns and Grizzles. He had that shotgun just in case he had to save his hide from one. The Game Warden was NOT hunting!

Deaf

 

[Zaydok Allen]

This thread just kind of makes me sad..................

 

[Deaf Smith]

Hey.. I think this is the one!!!



And another one like it.



Dang man.. they always uses fancy shotguns. Must be Wilsons!



Deaf

 

[MCMXI]

He had that shotgun just in case he had to save his hide from one. The Game Warden was NOT hunting!

Oh, I was under the impression that he was going out to shoot an injured bear.