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Lever Gun as a SHTF Rifle

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by AnklePocket, Jan 19, 2004.

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  1. AnklePocket

    AnklePocket Guest

    My appologies for another SHTF thread, but your thoughts on a Marlin 1894C (.357 Mag) as a "rifle behind every blade of grass" rifle rather than a modern auto feeder.
     
  2. Mikul

    Mikul Member

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    Lever guns are about as politically correct as you can get in a carbine. The 1894C is good to 150 yards. That's too close for comfort for my tastes, but as a close-quarters, target-poor environment it is excellent. It's not even a bad hunting gun should you need to take food with it.

    A lever action in 30-30 would open you up to 300 yards.
     
  3. Nathanael_Greene

    Nathanael_Greene Member

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    I recently acquired an 1894C, and I can't say enough good things about it. My concern is more about home defense than any societal apocalypse, but the important thing is to have confidence in your firearm, and this Marlin has a lot going for it. The fact that it shares ammunition with a handgun is just one of many advantages.
     
  4. dadman

    dadman Member

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  5. Dave R

    Dave R Member

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    This gets discussed from time to time. Do a search for past threads. Short version: its a good idea.

    Some would argue that a better caliber would be .30-30 or .44mag, but nothing wrong with .357 mag.

    Col. Cooper is another one who has spoken favoriably on the "tactical levergun'.
     
  6. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    The only down side I see to the lever gun is its magazine. One good whack on something hard and/or sharp and its now a single loader. I think this is one of the reasons the military never accepted it.
     
  7. Dave R

    Dave R Member

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    You'd have to whack that tubular mag pretty hard to dent it. Harder than the whack it would take to disable an AR mag.

    OTOTH, tubular mags let you "shoot one, load one", which can have tactical advantages. That's hard to do with a box magazine.
     
  8. David4516

    David4516 Member

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    I too was interested in the "lever action assault rifle" concept. So I made up a batch of 110 gr JHPs for my Winchester model 94 .30-30

    They worked great, and they kicked less. Since the only semi-autos I own at the moment are handguns, the model 94 is my SHTF rifle. I've also got one of the elastic shell holder thingys on the stock.

    But I think .30-30 is overkill for home defense, at least in my area, there are too many people around, I worry about over-penatration, even with these lighter bullets...

    But when you arn't in the middle of the city, I think the .30-30 lever gun with JHPs is a good way to go...
     
  9. Brian Williams

    Brian Williams Moderator Emeritus

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    Sure what better to have ammo compatability than a 357 lever and a S&W 586 or 13.

    Sure you could whack the mag tube but you could have a truck run over the foreend or rear end of an Ar and wreck the gas tube or buffer tube, you could pull wrong on that M1A and bend your Op rod...... you could trip and fill the muzzle of your shotgun just before you pull the trigger and blow the barrel, you could have a double load of bullseye and blow the top strap off of your S&W, you could Blow your nose and hemmorage and die but.............:banghead:

    I was at home by my self the other day and I was comparing the win 1300 with the 1894c and the lever was more compact and easier to go thru the house with. My 1300 has a 22" pipe but that 18.5" pipe and the smaller size of the 1894 made for some quick handling.
     
  10. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    Yea, but I can dump the AR mag and replace it with a new one. I dont know if you've ever had one apart, but those tubes really are not all that heavy, at least not on the Winchesters. Think about swinging that levergun as a club, or wacking it against a door jamb or the corner of something on that tube. It wouldnt take much to dent it or collapse it to the point the rounds woud no longer feed. I agree you can shoot one and load one, but you can do the same with a bolt, especially the older military guns with a cutoff, or swap out a mag on a detachable mag gun. The lever gun is slow to load when its empty and your in a hurry, not a problem with the bolt gun and strippers or a mag change. Dont get me wrong, I have a couple of lever guns and would not hesitate to use it if it was all I had, but I think if your planning on making it your main gun, I'd pick something else. As for the over penatration issue, I'm still a fan of guns that will. I WANT to be able to shoot through things, especially if whats on the other side means to do me harm.
     
  11. Balog

    Balog Member

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    AK103K: couldn't you make the same objections to the poor, fragile pump shotguns? They're tube fed, but I've never heard of anyone complaining about them.
     
  12. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    The tube on a pump gun or auto is covered by the forearem or pump, the leverguns tube is just hanging out there. Hey, dont get me wrong, I like my leverguns, just not for this.
     
  13. Balog

    Balog Member

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    Uhhhh, I've never seen a tube fed rifle without a forearm. It might not go quite as far as the forearm on shottie, but it's still there. I was thinking of shotties with "extended" tubes that go to the end (or near the end) of the barrel.
     
  14. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Member

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    Blah blah blah FRAGMENTATION blah blah blah penetrates less than 9mm blah blah blah

    Better stick with 7.62 or .30-06 if you want penetration. :evil:

    I think a levergun would work just fine for any social occasion you're likely to encounter. When's the last time someone fired 30 rounds in self defense, that wasn't part of an infantry patrol?
     
  15. DMK

    DMK Member

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    I don't disagree with you, but depending on where you dent that tube and how bad, you might just reduce it's capacity rather than make it useless.

    I don't know of too many bolt guns except the Krag that let you top off a fixed mag while a round is chambered.
     
  16. PO2Hammer

    PO2Hammer Member

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    My Marlin 1894 CP (16" .357) is my SHTF rifle. Don't worry about the mag tube, they are thicker and tougher than you might think. Ballistics from a carbine bring the .357 up near, repeat NEAR, the 30-30 and 7.65x39mm. If the SHTF, people carrying assault rifles will be the first targets. If you were a rural land owner, who would you shoot first, the guy in fatigues carrying an AK, or the guy in plaid carring a lever gun? Also having a carbine that uses the same ammo as you revolver lets you stock/carry more ammo. When iI need more than a .357, I go straight up to a bolt .308, skipping the intermediate cartridges like .223, 7.65x39mm.
     
  17. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    I'm not saying its going to happen, just that its a weak point in the rifle, at least to me. I think if it takes a hard enough hit, it would jam at that point and the spring pressure would be off the rest of the rounds in the tube and it wouldnt feed. Not that you couldnt hold it muzzle up and get the loose rounds down. Your right about the Krag, I wasnt thinking of a round in the chamber, just that you can still top them off if you need to.
     
  18. grendelbane

    grendelbane Member

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    Having a handgun and a long gun chambered for the same cartridge is an appealing idea. The problem is if you want to use the most effective hollow point ammunition. The heavier bullets will perform better out of the carbine, while the handgun might prefer lighter bullets.

    The lighter weight hollow points in a carbine may not penetrate adequately, and the heavier hollow points may not expand from the shorter handgun barrel.

    Of course, if you prefer cast bullets, this is not a problem.
     
  19. Balog

    Balog Member

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    I imagine if you went around smacking your rifle into hard surfaces it might affect it's reliability/accuracy, regardless of the feeding method. As has been pointed out, it would take a pretty good thwack to damage the tube, and any hit that hard could probably also damage other parts of the rifle.
     
  20. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    The lever guns are not combat rifles. They make nice hunting and coyboy game rifles, but they are not combat rifles. If they were in that class, I think the US government would have adopted them when they first came out. Off the top of my head, the only lever guns I know of that were adopted by a major army, were the mag fed Winchesters adopted by the Russians, but I'm sure someone else did too, maybe the Turks. I guess they will never get handled roughly in your SHTF situations, so its a moot point, so forget about the mag tube issue and carry on. :)
     
  21. grendelbane

    grendelbane Member

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    The Turks were the ones who taught the Russians about lever action rifles.

    I too, would like to see a reproduction 1895 Winchester chambered for the 7.62x54R, with stripper clip guides.

    Between Smith & Wesson, and Winchester, the Czarist troops were well armed. Not that it helped that much.

    The fragility of magazine tubes is a serious consideration. I have a Mossberg shotgun that was taken out of action by a dent on the magazine tube. Perhaps that is why the old makers always used full stocks on the lever guns that they tried to sell to the military.

    The French Lebel was an example of a tube magazine military weapon. While breaking new ground, it did not last too long.

    We have pump action AR's and AK's, Why not a lever action assault rifle?
     
  22. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Beats rocks and flipping the byrd.
     
  23. Balog

    Balog Member

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    AK103K wrote:
    You could've fooled the soldiers in the War Between the States who shelled out several months worth of pay to get Henry rifles. Or the settlers in the west who chose them to fight off Indians as well as put game on the table.

    While I'm not saying they are as purely durable or effective in high-volume of fire fighting and poor field conditions, they do offer certain advantages. And they are a combat proven design.
     
  24. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    Well, combat proven in the same sense that Brown Bess is combat proven. :neener: :neener: :neener:

    My take on it is that a levergun will serve the SHTF role, but I'd argue that a mag fed autoloader would still be a better choice, and that is what I consider to be the minimum ante for a militarily useful rifle for the average man under ordinary cirumstances.

    I'd also take a look at the ballistics of the rounds, especially the pistol calibers, and compare them to the big 3. (.223, 7.62x39 commie, and .308) before making a final choice.
     
  25. dbshabo

    dbshabo Member

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    In a SHTF situation I'll use whatever I have at my dispoal to protect my family and property. I think the key is to know how to effectively use whatever you do have. That means range time and malfunction drills. If you can't clear a malfunction under a level of stress that most of us have never experienced you essentially have an expensive club. Train hard cause you'll fight like you train.

    Shabo
     
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