Limp-Wristing

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Tuner ~

The little bit of progress we made in the other thread came from realizing that "limp wrist" isn't one thing, it's several. It's a catch-all phrase.

An example: Even a perfectly-tuned 1911 will malf if you shoot high thumbs and press the thumbs hard against the slide, retarding its action. But when the actual problem goes undiagnosed, that can be called "limp wristing" because it is a shooter-induced malfunction of the gun, and because if anyone else picks that gun up to shoot it, it will function without a burp.

I've seen young, brand-new shooters who had a very interesting and unusual flinch pattern -- almost a two-stage flinch that looks something like the old cowboy movies where the shooter tries to "throw" the bullets downrange with the barrel of the gun. I think that one is caused by too much playing with toys guns as a child. That weird two-stage thing sometimes results in malfs. I can't actually do it, so couldn't demonstrate it for anyone else, but I've seen it done with a gun that otherwise functioned flawlessly. All it takes to fix it is convincing the newbie not to "make" the gun fire ... and it is such an egregious and easily fixed error that after firing a half-dozen rounds correctly, he'll probably never even be able to do it wrong again.

As I said long ago in that other thread, I really don't understand all the emotion about this. It takes only two seconds to teach someone to keep their wrists straight and to make sure their fingers are not retarding the slide action. It costs nothing and can be done right there on the range when the problem crops up. And if it doesn't work, or if the problem crops up again, the gun can easily be brought to a smith for a tune up.

Why not go for the fast, free fix before suggesting people try a slow and expensive one? Why all the emotion?

pax
 
I only know what I see, and that is, I can't make any of my guns malfunction by a loose grip and NOBODY else can make it happen in my presence. I belong to two gun clubs that have over a thousand members combined and none of them can do it.
So because YOU can't do it, you think no one else can......BS.
You have seen each of over a thousand shooters try?... BS.

You're 1500 miles away so, unless I figure out how to post a video, I don't suppose we'll ever get together to prove one way or the other. I am guessing that even if I post a video that you will come up some reason not to believe it. In my Multi-State Concealed weapons class, I describe how it happens but in Defensive Handgun I, I demonstrate it and have shown quite a few people how it happens. I usually demeo it with either my G22 or my G23 but have done it with others as well. I would be haapy to demo it to you too, if I were ever to have any reason to cross the Mississippi again.


Emotion? Nah...I could just use a hundred bucks
LOL, maybe you and JS can carpool. Bring your wallet and come to my range.
 
Tuner ~

You didn't address the important question: why not go for the fast, free fix before suggesting a slow and expensive one?

pax
 
Carpool

DS wrote:

>LOL, maybe you and JS can carpool. Bring your wallet and come to my range.<
********

Too old to make the trip, lad.:cool:

Lemme go ahead and clarify a little deeper before pax thinks I really am emotional about this question.:neener:

If the gun is a range queen or a steel plate toy, it doesn't matter. You've always got the time, opportunity, and the presence of mind to adjust your grip...and if the gun malfunctions *because* of a bad grip...nothing meaningful is lost.

If, on the other hand, your sidearm is carried for the off-chance of needin' a weapon to save ol' skinny, and you have to jump through hoops and whistle Dixie before you can depend on it to function...then it's time to either get the problem corrected or consider a revolver. *Because*...When you're up to your crack in crocodiles, you can't count on being able to get a two hand grip on the gun, much less getting it juuuuuust right.

pax pondered:

>You didn't address the important question: why not go for the fast, free fix before suggesting a slow and expensive one?<
*************

Because the fast fix isn't always the dependable fix.
 
Ahhhh, okay.

Let's work this a little more, Tuner. I don't think we're so far apart, mebbe. I absolutely and totally agree that if we are talking about defense guns, the gun must be reliable, and must function in the real world on a day when Murphy and Lady Luck both personally hate your guts.

This is a horrible confession to make on a gun board, but I don't actually care much about guns per se. I'm basically uninterested in the minutae of how a gun is put together; all I really care about is how it works when it gets into the shooter's hands. That's my bottom line and yours too. So as I said, you and I aren't so far apart on this.

You know I see a lot of shooters as an assistant instructor at a fairly busy firearms school, FAS. I get to be the one standing right behind them as they learn to shoot, suggesting improvements in their shooting techniques, helping them hit the target instead of the target stand, making sure they don't hurt themselves by getting a thumb behind the slide or wrapping a hand around the cylinder. I watch muzzle direction, grip and stance, trigger control ... you get the picture. I don't watch targets -- I watch shooters. I watch what they do and how they do it. I have seen and corrected many shooter induced malfunctions in beginning classes.

(An aside: sometimes a newbie says, "these sights are off!" The usual solution is to pick up the gun, fire a tight group, and say, "nope, it's not the sights." But you know what? Occasionally, it is the sights. I think limp-wrist malfs are sort of like that. It can be either the shooter or the gun, and an experienced hand is needed to diagnose the difference.)

Anyway. It doesn't end with the beginners standing on a static line. After we get our beginners holding the gun properly on a static range and firing somewhat predictable groups at close targets, we start mixing it up. We show them how to fire on their knees, or from behind cover, or in the dark, or using only one hand, or while moving, or while the targets are moving. Eventually, if they keep coming back long enough, we teach them how to fire in really tough situations, such as one-handed while moving in the dark with the targets also moving -- or such as lying on the ground in a fetal position, with the gun held upside down one-handed.

None of this requires a shooter to "hold his mouth just right" in order to make the gun function. We expect and demand that the shooter and his gun function under all sorts of strange conditions that most range shooters will simply never experience. It isn't real world, but it's as close to real world as it could possibly be in a safe training environment.

The beginner who limp-wrists an otherwise functional firearm often eventually turns into an experienced shooter who can fire one-handed upside down without any difficulty at all -- even though he is firing the same gun which has not had a trip to the gunsmith in the meanwhile.

I've also (of course!) seen poorly-functioning guns which did indeed need a trip to the 'smith. Probably more of those than of the strictly shooter error types of malfs. I've seen both types: mechanically caused, and shooter caused.

That's my experience.

pax
 
1911tuner, i am similarly not emotionally invested in this issue. but i am really curious about what you think is wrong with guns that need to be held just right. can you give me some examples of ones that you've fixed before from this issue?
 
I never believed in “limp wristing” till about 4 weeks ago, now I’m not so sure. I never had a problem with it, none of my shooting friends do, nor does my wife apparently. About the only place I've heard about it is the Internet.

What changed my mind was taking my father-in-law from Austria out to shoot at my place. We started out with my 7.65 1923 Luger. Now I’m pretty proud of this one because I spent quite a bit of time working up a load that would function reliably in it due to its oversize bore. It had gone a about 300 rounds without a hiccup till he tried it. Then, a couple FTEs per magazine and the toggle wouldn’t lock back on empty. When I shot it, it was OK though.

We then moved on to my SIG220ST, again every couple of mags he would get a FTE. Not as bad as the Luger, but something wasn’t right. For me this gun has run 100%. The clincher was when he shot my 5” Baer. This gun has gone over 9000 rounds without a hitch, but with him the same effect as with the SIG. Every couple mags he’d get a FTE stovepipe:confused: My wife shoots my Baer, my friends 16 year old daughter has shot my Baer, I’ve shot it every which way possible and haven’t had a problem. BLUF, I trust my Baer.

I thought it might have been a combination of a finicky Luger, and some bad reloads in the .45ACPs, but everything ran normally for me. When we got home I relayed the experience to my wife. They then conversed in German for a while and then she told me that he’d sustained an injury to his right wrist that made it painful to keep it locked straight. He also said that he doesn’t like autos very much because he seems to have jamming problems with all the ones he’s tried.

Maybe limp wristing does or doesn’t exist, I’m not so sure now. What I do know is when I take my father-in-law out to shoot I’ll hand him either my Python or one of my Colt SAAs.

Chuck
 
How Far?

Me an' pax reached an agreement? :what: Hell hath frozen over.:p

I've always subscribed to the notion that a machine is designed to operate, pretty much any way that you want to operate it...within reason, of course... and I haven't run into a pistol yet that malfunctioned because of grip that I couldn't correct as long as the shooter didn't drop it every time it was fired. In all except a few notable instances, the problem was with the gun. For the times that it was actually the shooter, a little retuning of the
recoil system cured it. My diminutive 13 year-old stepdaughter shoots full-sized and Commander-sized 1911s without a hitch and without respringing just for her. She also shoots Glocks on occasion...whenever somebody happens to have one handy...BHPs and others. Once, she had a function problem, and the owner said that the gun had to be gripped pretty hard to keep that from happening, and that such a little girl probably didn't have the hand strength to shoot that big, scary pistol. Took all of 10 minutes to fix it.
He was flabbergasted.

Many blame it on overspringing...and sometimes that's a correct assumption...but that's only half the question. It also has to feed and go to battery. If the slide short-cycles a little, and the short run-up causes a failure there...then the job isn't finished. If the gun won't feed and go to battery with a light spring...with the slide drawn back just far enough to strip the round...it needs tweakin'. The good news is, that it doesn't usually take much.
 
Now the Pax and Tuner are on the same page...

I occasionally see what I believe to be extraordinarily low expectations of our firearms, to wit:

I know that limp-wristing is not a myth because I've even had my Ransom Rest limp-wrist using their factory torque setting. For some guns, I had to set the torque much tighter than recommended.

No disrespect to the poster noting the above, but can we agree that a firearm that won't run at Ransom rest factory recommended settings is simply a broken gun?
 
Hawk ~

Yes. :eek:

"Extraordinarily low expectations of our firearms" sums that up quite nicely.

pax
 
Low Expectations

Quote:

>I occasionally see what I believe to be extraordinarily low expectations of our firearms, to wit:<
*****************

And therein lies most of the trouble. When we have new pistols that don't live up to expectations...and we call the manufacturer...we (too) often get the old "500-round Break-In" or the "Limp Grip" song and dance...and it's come to be accepted as common and even expected.

Sheep dip.

I read that as either:

"We don't know how to fix it" or "We'd rather not fool with it. Go away and stop bothering us unless you want to buy another one of our fine products."

Wonder what the reaction would have been in 1912 if the Army Ordnance Department had called Colt to tell'em that their last shipment of pistols was chokin' on every other magazine...and they had gotten the reply that
they had to be broken in and that the troops weren't gripping the guns tight enough. :scrutiny:

Here's where I start to get emotional, so I'd best bail out now...
 
Tuner strikes a chord. I don't know if anybody ever answered Pax's question in the old thread about "why so emotional".

I got the whole enchilada: break-in (500 rounds), limp-wrist, change ammo. If the diagnosis is bogus, as it almost certainly is coming from someone who hasn't seen the shooter or the weapon (present company excepted), a trusting sort can spend an awful lot of real money (break-in rounds, wrist gimmicks) and real time chasing smoke. Once it comes to light that the gun really was the problem, it's too late to get back either the time or the money.

Voila: a skeptic is born. If it happens more than once the skeptic produced thereby will be very vocal and have a bad rash.
 
Thanks for the discussion. I wasn't sure what limp-wristing looked like. Think I've seen it once: limp wrist, limp elbow, limp shoulder, limp...

War story: About 30 years ago I ran a .45 qualification range. A half-colonel goes to the line. First shot is down-range, pistol kicks back past vertical and fires, third shot goes down-range and I was yelling check-fire before round 4 came in my direction. (artillery, never could remember that some folks say cease fire). We had a long and rather heated discussion (on my part) about the ability of a mere captain to throw a field grade off the range unless he fired only with adult supervision; something about not getting combat pay and not being the one to write up the explanation of the new hole in the tower was also in the discussion.

I've never been sure how he accomplished the over-the-shoulder shot. But it sure added a bit of spice to an otherwise dull day.
 
"We don't know how to fix it" or "We'd rather not fool with it. Go away and stop bothering us unless you want to buy another one of our fine products."
Well, that's enough to make me plenty cranky, too.

I guess I come at 'most everything from a perspective of, "You don't need a technology fix for a training problem." That's a true statement, but I admit it's only half the puzzle.

The other half, which Tuner and Hawk have so thoroughly highlighted, is, "You can't do the job right if the tools don't work the way they're supposed to." And that's just as true.

Carry on ...

pax
 
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