Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by jim in Anchorage, Sep 14, 2017.
Any one think of a reason not to? Seems like the action would be strong enough.
A 454 is rated at 60,000 cup vs 40,000 cup for a 44 magnum and a bigger base diameter. In terms of bolt thrust It would basically be like shooting a 300 win mag in it. Don't stand behind or anywhere near it when you try it.
I said model 1894 in .45 colt not 44 mag .
.454 has 4 times the pressure and bolt thrust of .45 Colt. I wouldn't do it even in a gun that is safe in .44 mag.
Here is a good read on the various lever actions like the Winchester 92 and the Marlin 1894 and the pressures they are rated for. And the Marlin is NOT suitable for the 60,000 CUP of the 454 pressures. Sounds like to me you would be better off getting a 45-70 or a 450 Marlin.
Nope - not safe. The 1894 can handle Ruger Only loads, but there's a big gap between 45colt and 454C, or 44mag and 454c, or even 45colt Ruger only Tier 3 and 454C.
Bad, bad, bad idea if you want to keep your face and fingers in their current condition. Even the Marlin 1895 in 45/70 is not rated for that kind of pressure.
I have bought truckloads of guns to overload them, just to see what happens.
After doing that enough times, I can tell what is going to happen just by looking at a gun.
I have a 2004 Winchester 94 in 45 Colt.
If you started working up to 454 from 45 Colt, it would kick your teeth out at the 45 Colt Ruger revolver level and you would quit the work up.
If you just jumped to 454 without a work up, it would wreck the gun, and possibly injure you.
How would I know? about the recoil?
I have been shooting 250 gr XTP at 1525 fps, with a huge grind to fit Limbsaver recoil pad [not shown].
My 338 Win Mag BAR with 250 gr bullets at 2500 fps is a pleasure to shoot.
The Win 94 with 250 gr bullets at 1525 fps is an eye opener for recoil.
How would I know? about the wrecked gun?
The metal on the Win 94 is too thin.
No I wouldn't recommend loading a 45-70 to those pressures but the 45-70 can safely match the power of the 454 Casull because of the use of slower burning powders. Trying to reach 454 power with a 45 Colt in a Marlin 1894 is a just a bad idea. Getting 2025fps with a 300gr bullet from my 45-70 was no problem and was a safe book load.
I can think of at least one reason not to but it was a toughie.
And if Clark wouldn't do it, considering he loves overloading stuff, well............... Be careful out there.
The best answer I can give is why?
I have a Win M94 Trails End Legacy in .45 Colt.
It is marvelously accurate. With some Hornady 250gr XTP "blems", over 20.0gr #2400, in Starline brass, it's good for 1,700fps (24"bbl), and once when verifying zero, shot a three-shot group of 1.25" at 100yds, witnessed. In fact one got so mad at seeing the group, he threw his Rem700 .270 in the trunk, left his ammo on the bench, and slung gravel the length of the drive leaving the range.
The only load I've killed deer with is a Lee 255gr RFN over 8.2gr of Universal for ~1,050fps (reason I was rechecking zero). This load has dropped several deer and a pig, with no bullets recovered. A hunting buddy shot a doe shoulder to hip with an exit from his 24"bbl Taurus Thunderbolt. His son used said load from a Taurus Circuit Judge (20"bbl revolver Carbine) likewise. These are SAA level loads increased just enough to maintain case obturation to eliminate blow by. The .45Colt M94 loaded to Ruger/contender safe loads (above listed #2400 load) gives handgun.454C velocities.
No point in gilding the Lily.
With the Lee 310gr LFN-GC, over 18.5gr 2400, I saw 1,500fps. Recoil was all I wanted... need more, get a .45/70.
Why don't you just buy a Rossi model 92 in 454 Casull?
Your widow would have appreciated it.
Absolutely not. This was all tried 20yrs ago or more. I was present for a lengthy discussion among several gunsmiths and Bob Baker of Freedom Arms, who had been part of much testing to adapt existing leverguns to the .454. In short, NONE of the existing pistol cartridge guns and few of the rifle cartridge guns (1886) would handle the pressure and backthrust. None of the Marlins. The modern 1892 proved the strongest but not for 65,000psi. A few gunsmiths would convert the fatbody Big Bore 94 but only for reduced loads.
Marlin - 40,000psi
1892 - 50,000psi
Rossi is still selling the 92 in 454, and this has been going on a long time:
I have not done a formal stress analysis on the 94 or the 92. But I own them and the 92 has much thicker steel than the OP's 94.
I am not saying of the 92, "She's got it where it counts, kid!"
But I am saying the 92 is stronger looking to me than the OP's 94 question.
I subscribe and have a copy of October 2000 Design News, where the Ruger Redhawk 44 mag is bored out to 454 and they go to Carpenter specialty steel to pass proof tests at Ruger. That is thin steel. I don't understand why the cases don't stick.
Don't do it!! You'll be picking pieces of steel and brass out of your face! The old 94 was designed during the blackpowder era, then upgraded to better steel, but not 65,000 PSI. I went a different direction, I had a gun smith rebarrel a Ruger #3 single-shot to 454 Casull for a handy little rifle...
If it would work, it would be sweet. Although I wouldn't want to be on the recoil end of the 1894 if it could handle the 454 without a blowup. Like drugs, just say no. My 1895G with a stout 45-70 smacks you pretty good.
Even if it were strong enough (it’s not), my question would be why? Is it just strictly a curiousity question? Because loaded warm, the 45 Colt is a powerhouse. Do you feel like you need more power?
I understand wanting to push limits. But you aren’t pushing them. Your inquiry is like lining up Clay Matthews (45 Colt at 454 pressure) at linebacker in a junior high football game and expecting their running back (the firearm) to just keep taking the abuse.
So..... The correct answer is: Unless this is just a curiosity question, If you need more power, get a different rifle in a bigger (more powerful) clambering.
Personally I think a levergun in 460 S&W would be pretty awesome. But already having levers in 357, 44mag, 444, and 45-70, I don’t see the reason why I would need one.
Here's the neat little secret that you uncover real quick with a chronograph. w
When you use the +P recipes in the longer barrel of the rifle, the velocity gains over the handgun data run about 300 fps using 296 etc. So yes a winchester trapper shooting ruger only loads will run neck and neck with a 454 handgun, without the excessive pressure. When you use a powder such as 4198 the velocity stays right up there, but with less pressure than the 296/110 loads.
Also keep in mind that those loads turn the friendly little Winchester, into a rather snarly lil bugger in the recoil department.
I have tried some stouter 45 Colt Loads in my 1892 and 1894. They do increase the recoil.
I guess I missed it if this was the point of the OP's question. When he implies, "Seems like the action would be strong enough," I infer he's thinking of raising the pressure, not just run ~1650fps and match velocity. I've often lived in a paradigm where I carry a handgun which acts like a rifle, but I wouldn't personally see a lot of interest in flipping that around.
Varminterror, are you an attorney?
Flipping what around? This has been going on since Colt discovered their new model P handgun would handle the Winchester wcf cartridges. It makes a good combo, an affective cartridge in the handgun, and even more affective in the rifle due to the gained velocity of the rifle barrel, and the increased accuracy potential of the rifle.
Partnering a rifle and handgun in the same cartridge is NOT what you said the first go 'round, nor is it to what I responded.
I lean towards making handguns act like rifles. I don't tend to see value in buying rifles which match handguns. Using the same cartridge in both a handgun and a rifle does not match performance.
Isn't part of the problem going to be the brass strength of Colt not being equal to Casull? If someone was to really want to work up some hottish loads, cutting down the Casull case to Colt length might be a wise thing to do. Of course, I might be thinking of the old balloon head Colt and the modern cases could be the same internally...but somehow I just have a feeling that the Casull case will be stronger. At the very least they have small rifle primers to better deal with the pressure vs large pistol in the Colt. I agree that I'd not want to shoot more than hot colt out of such a light carbine....my Rossi M92 was pretty snorty with heavy Colt loads.
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