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Loaning handgun to out-of-state brother

Discussion in 'Legal' started by DennisTheMenace, Aug 15, 2006.

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  1. DennisTheMenace

    DennisTheMenace Member

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    If anyone can point me to a reliable source of information that helps me answer a question I'd appreciate it.

    I live in Nebraska. My brother lives in Florida. He's finally decided that having a handgun for self defense is a good idea. The home invasion murder a block from his house helped convince him.

    Unfortunately, his budget doesn't include buying the handgun he's decided is the best long-term purchase. I have the luxury of having an old FM High Power that I haven't shot in a while. I'd like to loan it to him for a while. Please note, this would be a LOAN, not a gift and not a sale. I expect to get it back.

    I want to make the transfers, both the loan of the gun, and the return of the gun, legally. Getting anyone in trouble sort of defeats the purpose of having it for self defense.

    I think I'm on firm legal ground if I ship the handgun to an FFL for delivery to him. The question is, what are my options for getting it back? I'm already scheduled to drive down and visit him in February. Can I just put it in my suitcase and carry it home (since it is _my_ handgun)? Or does it need to be shipped to an FFL in Nebraska to transfer it back to me?

    I expect there will be many opinions on the best, cheapest, right, legal, ethical and moral options. I'm hoping someone is able to point me to a reliable reference source (if there is such) which answers the question. I've looked on the BATF web site but haven't found an answer that I feel is trustworthy.

    Help! :)

    Dennis
     
  2. SIOP

    SIOP Member

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    There is an exception for the loan of a firearm for "lawful sporting purposes" but it would be debatable whether or not a handgun for protection would meet that criteria. You might try checking with ATF for a definitive interpretation, but if you really want to be safe use an FFL each way. If you go the FFL route, you would have to do it going both ways, because it would then have transferred to him and it is illegal for a non-FFL to transfer any type of firearm to a resident of another state.
     
  3. mikeb3185

    mikeb3185 Member

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    check out packing.org and i would "sell" him the firearm (recipts and all)
     
  4. sm

    sm member

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  5. Crosscut

    Crosscut Member

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    Send Money

    Why don't you send him $400 to $500 dollars as a loan, and have him go buy his own. That way he just repays you the money, and you don't have to frig around with ffl transfers.:D
     
  6. crazed_ss

    crazed_ss Member

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    That sounds like a much better idea.
     
  7. Lennyjoe

    Lennyjoe Member

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    Or give it to him as a gift with the promise that if he ever decided he didn't need it to return it to you.

    All ATF/FFL rules apply though, no getting around that.
     
  8. Superpsy

    Superpsy Member

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    +1
     
  9. vito

    vito Member

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    I ecently loaned one of my handguns to my son in an adjacent state. I just handed it to him and said "give it back when you no longer need it". If this is illegal then this country has really become more of a police state than I thought it already was.
     
  10. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I would just drive it down there and leave it when you visit. You may have some responsibility if something happens with the gun though. If you do this, be sure he knows how to operate the firearm. Sending money is the cleanest approach. He gets what he wants. He could get a shotgun for a couple $100 at a gun show if he would just make the effort and he is of legal age.
     
  11. SIOP

    SIOP Member

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    In his post the guy said specifically that he wants to stay legal, yet you are recommending that both he and his brother commit a federal felony.

    ???????????
     
  12. Northslope Nimrod

    Northslope Nimrod Member

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    Confused

    I guess I am missing something. If you own a firearm, there isn't a federal law that prohibits you from loaning it, selling it or throwing it in the trash. What federal law would he break if he drives it down there? (Make sure you comply with State laws while you possess it)
     
  13. SIOP

    SIOP Member

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    I guess you are. It's called the Gun Control Act.
     
  14. Northslope Nimrod

    Northslope Nimrod Member

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    The law allows "bequests" ...and "loans" for lawful sporting purposes. Loaning creates the gray area....(ie: "lawful sporting purpose"). Would bequest be interpreted to require the passing of the transferor?
     
  15. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    "the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes"

    [18 USC 922(a)(5)(B)]

    1) How many hours / days / weeks / months / years is "temporary"?

    2) Is self-defense a "sporting purpose"?
     
  16. zoom6zoom

    zoom6zoom Member

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    That old High Power is on the C&R list, isn't it? Have your BIL get his C&R licence, takes less than a month, then you can ship it right to him.
     
  17. Mr. James

    Mr. James Member

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    SIOP, I'm not arguing with you, but just commenting: what a sorry state of affairs. This is no way for free men to live. :mad:
     
  18. SIOP

    SIOP Member

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    You'll get no argument from me on that one.

    I don't even think that felons should be prohibited from owning firearms. The ones that are going to break the law are going to do it regardless.
     
  19. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    Correct.
     
  20. ssr

    ssr Member

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    I beg to differ. There is no law that prevents driving his own firearm to or from another state. And there is no law that prevents him from giving or selling his gun to his brother (unless his brother is a felon prevented from owning firearms).

    If he does send it to his brother, he certainly can pick it up himself and drive it home. Or he can even ship it (his own property) back to his own home address without involving an FFL. Many times I've had gun manufacturers or gunsmiths ship back my own gun after they have done work on it. No FFL required.

    I am not necessarily saying he should give his brother his gun , rather than loaning some money, just stating what I understand to be legal.
     
  21. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    If you loan it to him, do so with the intention that you are loaning it for target shooting. That is a lawful sporting purpose. If someone breaks in on him and he uses it to defend himself, that is just coincidental.

    ssr,

    I think you are wrong on a few points. First, since his brother is out of state, I think federal law prevents him from selling it or giving it to him directly. I believe it would have to go through an FFL to be legal. A loan for sporting purposes is an exception to this rule. Target shooting is a sporting purpose.

    Also, two unlicensed people cannot ship guns to each other across state lines without going through an FFL. An unlicensed person can recieve or send a firearm to the manufacturer or gun smith, but that is an exception. There is a special category of FFL for manufacturers and gunsmiths, as I recall.
     
  22. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    True.

    18 USC 922
    (a) It shall be unlawful
    ...
    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
    ...
     
  23. Andras

    Andras Member

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    My Great-Uncle gave me a Colt 1911. I had to have it sent to a FFL and go through the state background check.

    If Florida does instant b/g checks, then just send it to a FFL, pay the dealer's transfer fee and he can take it home right then.
     
  24. ssr

    ssr Member

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    OK. So, if he wishes to do it, I guess send it to an FFL and have him pick it up. To take it back home I would just pick it up and drive back home, if he's going down there anyway.

    However, I am not a fan of giving out or loaning guns to others, particular for self-defense purposes. Is someone wants my help in aquiring their own I would certainly do that.
     
  25. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    Nope. When the gun was sent to the FFL for the brother to pick up in another state, it was transferred to the brother. To legally get back across state lines to the original owner, it has to be transferred from an FFL in the original owner's state.

    If you can't legally ship it across state lines in one direction, you can't legally ship it in the other direction.
     
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