Lock free S&W 642's on the way
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fastbolt
Member
Some further personal thoughts since the 37-2's were mentioned ...
Notice the product code technical specifications lists the caliber as .38 S&W Special ... not .38 +P, as S&W does for the model 637 - http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...ted=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15704
I bought one of the earlier production run 37-2's made with the older frames that were mentioned.
The barrel on mine was not marked with the +P language, but was marked .38 S&W Spl.
Having read the earlier debate among the various internet firearms forums about whether those 37's in that limited run were rated for +P use, I called S&W and asked someone in Customer Service.
Their initial answer was that they were rated for +P.
I asked for some further clarification, such as what exactly made them able to withstand the increased pressure of +P ammunition. The improved metallurgy and design changes incorporated into the newer Airweight models (identified with the integral cylinder stop versus the older installed machined stud) was explained.
But my 37-2 was the older frame, though, I pointed out. I asked if that older frame had been modified in any way to incorporate the 'improvements' mentioned, making it somehow stronger and suitable for +P usage.
The fact that some of the limited run of special production 37-2's had been assembled with +P marked barrels, and some with barrels marked just .38 S&W Spl., was discussed. I wondered if that was simply because some 442-1 barrels had been used for the overseas order, where presumably it wouldn't matter since +P ammunition apparently wasn't anticipated being used by the oringinal intended customer, anyway, so maybe for convenience some 442-1 +P marked barrels had been used along with the regular 37 barrels. The rep didn't know.
The CS rep finally hesitated. I was asked if I would be willing to wait while Production was consulted to answer my question. No problem.
A little while later the rep came back on the line and said that the head of Production had stated that the 37-2's were not considered rated for +P ammunition. I was further told that no standard model 37's had ever been produced on the stronger improved frame yet ... and only the model 637's were presently rated for +P ammunition ... and that the model 37 was tentatively slated for upgrading, like the 637 had received, at some point in the future. (Note that it's not listed in the current catalog at this time.)
What's it mean? Dunno ... aside from that there was apparently some confusion and potential communication issues occurring regarding the limited run of 37-2's that were diverted to the commercial market back then.
Now, when I called and asked about the supposed 4,000-odd limited run of non-ILS 642's being discussed on the internet, I was told that they were just the result of some cleaning out of a lot of parts & components in the factory's parts inventory stock. I wasn't told anything about some canceled special order. Maybe what I was told was correct ... Dunno. It's probably not fair to expect that everyone who answers a phone has all the information about everything involved with their company. Any company. Not the first time I've had to wait while someone in customer service for different firearms companies had to put me on hold and consult with someone else, or transfer me to someone more knowledgeable regarding a specific subject.
If I didn't already own a 642-1 produced on the improved frame and marked as rated for +P ... and the ones being assembled and shipped are 642-1's rated for +P ammunition ... I'd pick one up.
I'm thinking my next J-frame will be one of the steel model 40's, though. No ILS and I'd like another steel J-frame. I already have 3 Airweights.
A second 642-1 rated for +P would be tempting, though.
BTW, I do like the 37-2 I picked up. Nice action. Accurate. I only use standard pressure ammunition, though.
Just my thoughts.
Notice the product code technical specifications lists the caliber as .38 S&W Special ... not .38 +P, as S&W does for the model 637 - http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...ted=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15704
I bought one of the earlier production run 37-2's made with the older frames that were mentioned.
The barrel on mine was not marked with the +P language, but was marked .38 S&W Spl.
Having read the earlier debate among the various internet firearms forums about whether those 37's in that limited run were rated for +P use, I called S&W and asked someone in Customer Service.
Their initial answer was that they were rated for +P.
I asked for some further clarification, such as what exactly made them able to withstand the increased pressure of +P ammunition. The improved metallurgy and design changes incorporated into the newer Airweight models (identified with the integral cylinder stop versus the older installed machined stud) was explained.
But my 37-2 was the older frame, though, I pointed out. I asked if that older frame had been modified in any way to incorporate the 'improvements' mentioned, making it somehow stronger and suitable for +P usage.
The fact that some of the limited run of special production 37-2's had been assembled with +P marked barrels, and some with barrels marked just .38 S&W Spl., was discussed. I wondered if that was simply because some 442-1 barrels had been used for the overseas order, where presumably it wouldn't matter since +P ammunition apparently wasn't anticipated being used by the oringinal intended customer, anyway, so maybe for convenience some 442-1 +P marked barrels had been used along with the regular 37 barrels. The rep didn't know.
The CS rep finally hesitated. I was asked if I would be willing to wait while Production was consulted to answer my question. No problem.
A little while later the rep came back on the line and said that the head of Production had stated that the 37-2's were not considered rated for +P ammunition. I was further told that no standard model 37's had ever been produced on the stronger improved frame yet ... and only the model 637's were presently rated for +P ammunition ... and that the model 37 was tentatively slated for upgrading, like the 637 had received, at some point in the future. (Note that it's not listed in the current catalog at this time.)
What's it mean? Dunno ... aside from that there was apparently some confusion and potential communication issues occurring regarding the limited run of 37-2's that were diverted to the commercial market back then.
Now, when I called and asked about the supposed 4,000-odd limited run of non-ILS 642's being discussed on the internet, I was told that they were just the result of some cleaning out of a lot of parts & components in the factory's parts inventory stock. I wasn't told anything about some canceled special order. Maybe what I was told was correct ... Dunno. It's probably not fair to expect that everyone who answers a phone has all the information about everything involved with their company. Any company. Not the first time I've had to wait while someone in customer service for different firearms companies had to put me on hold and consult with someone else, or transfer me to someone more knowledgeable regarding a specific subject.
If I didn't already own a 642-1 produced on the improved frame and marked as rated for +P ... and the ones being assembled and shipped are 642-1's rated for +P ammunition ... I'd pick one up.
I'm thinking my next J-frame will be one of the steel model 40's, though. No ILS and I'd like another steel J-frame. I already have 3 Airweights.
A second 642-1 rated for +P would be tempting, though.
BTW, I do like the 37-2 I picked up. Nice action. Accurate. I only use standard pressure ammunition, though.
Just my thoughts.
Not trying to slam anyone, just getting the information out.
smith-wessonforum member DC7's reply to fastbolt's post above (same post posted on s&W forum):
"Fastbolt: Sounds like they gave you bad info. SCSW says the Model 37 went to the J-magnum frame in 1997, and was built on that stronger frame until 2002. If the rep you spoke to (and the head of production?!?) didn't even know about magnum-frame Model 37's that they built for half a decade, I don't think I'd take their word about the 37-2 being +P rated or not.
In my opinion, the simple fact that S&W sold lots of 37-2's in the last batch with +P markings pretty well confirms that the guns were indeed +P rated. S&W always seems to take an overly-conservative approach to use of high-pressure ammo in their guns, so I doubt that they would ever sell guns marked +P if they weren't actually rated for that ammunition."
smith-wessonforum member DC7's reply to fastbolt's post above (same post posted on s&W forum):
"Fastbolt: Sounds like they gave you bad info. SCSW says the Model 37 went to the J-magnum frame in 1997, and was built on that stronger frame until 2002. If the rep you spoke to (and the head of production?!?) didn't even know about magnum-frame Model 37's that they built for half a decade, I don't think I'd take their word about the 37-2 being +P rated or not.
In my opinion, the simple fact that S&W sold lots of 37-2's in the last batch with +P markings pretty well confirms that the guns were indeed +P rated. S&W always seems to take an overly-conservative approach to use of high-pressure ammo in their guns, so I doubt that they would ever sell guns marked +P if they weren't actually rated for that ammunition."
fastbolt
Member
No 'slam' perceived.
My response, though ...
Maybe, maybe not.
Opinions notwithstanding, I received contradictory information when I called and asked someone to look into it for me.
Do you consider the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson to be definitive, complete and without unintended mistake of fact?
Even the factory can't keep its parts catalogs and some other written sources complete, current and without the occasional error. (Not to mention perhaps keeping all of its customer service staff fully informed and current when it comes to all models. )
FWIW, I thought I recalled the last time the M37 appeared in the website catalog that it listed the caliber as .38 S&W Special, and not .38 +P as was listed in the description of the M637 at the same time. (Not that the website hasn't contained mistakes.)
Then, there's the S&W Product Sheet for this limited release M37 which lists the caliber as only being .38 Special. Maybe it's accurate?
On the other hand, I also have a 2004 S&W brochure which lists the 37 as being in production, available and rated for +P in that year. (Then again, like there haven't been mistakes which have made it past editors & proof-readers into brochures. I remember the wrong weight being listed for a model I was considering one time, too. I could see how easy it might be to leave off, or add, the +P designation to the .38 Special caliber language and have it missed. Having so many J-frame models produced in .38 Spl which are rated for +P might make it easy to miss mark a technical description section, though, when info is proofed and approved.)
Hey, I've received my fair share of mistaken information from folks at various firearms companies upon occasion, including S&W. I understand that it can happen. I've had to call back and speak to someone else in order to get corrected information on various issues, and I'm sure I'll have to do so again at some point.
The only thing of which I'm sure is that my model 37-2's barrel doesn't list the +P designation, but my 642-1's barrel does. Also, my 37-2 has the older 'short frame' (or 'pre-Magnum' frame if you prefer) ... while my 642-1 has the long frame.
The rep seemed confident toward the end of my call they had received the best info after calling over to Production, and even mentioned that maybe they should stop telling people that those particular guns were +P rated. If someone were to experience a damaged 37 from that run of 37's because of the use of +P ammunition, and the barrel on their particular 37 had the +P language, I suspect that S&W would cheerfully replace their gun with another one.
I sure don't claim to have the definitive answer to this subject, though.
Maybe anyone interested in these guns, and whether +P ammunition is approved for use in them, ought to consider calling the factory themselves and satisfying their own curiosity, as well as examining their particular gun received and seeing whether the caliber markings on the barrel displays the standard .38 S&W Special or .38 S&W SPL +P. Easy enough to do.
When it comes right down to it, however, wouldn't you think that being able to buy a NIB 37-2 sans ILS and without MIM parts ... even if it wasn't rated for +P ammunition ... would still be a nice addition to a collection?
My response, though ...
Maybe, maybe not.
Opinions notwithstanding, I received contradictory information when I called and asked someone to look into it for me.
Do you consider the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson to be definitive, complete and without unintended mistake of fact?
Even the factory can't keep its parts catalogs and some other written sources complete, current and without the occasional error. (Not to mention perhaps keeping all of its customer service staff fully informed and current when it comes to all models.
)FWIW, I thought I recalled the last time the M37 appeared in the website catalog that it listed the caliber as .38 S&W Special, and not .38 +P as was listed in the description of the M637 at the same time. (Not that the website hasn't contained mistakes.)
Then, there's the S&W Product Sheet for this limited release M37 which lists the caliber as only being .38 Special. Maybe it's accurate?
On the other hand, I also have a 2004 S&W brochure which lists the 37 as being in production, available and rated for +P in that year. (Then again, like there haven't been mistakes which have made it past editors & proof-readers into brochures.
I remember the wrong weight being listed for a model I was considering one time, too. I could see how easy it might be to leave off, or add, the +P designation to the .38 Special caliber language and have it missed. Having so many J-frame models produced in .38 Spl which are rated for +P might make it easy to miss mark a technical description section, though, when info is proofed and approved.)Hey, I've received my fair share of mistaken information from folks at various firearms companies upon occasion, including S&W. I understand that it can happen. I've had to call back and speak to someone else in order to get corrected information on various issues, and I'm sure I'll have to do so again at some point.
The only thing of which I'm sure is that my model 37-2's barrel doesn't list the +P designation, but my 642-1's barrel does. Also, my 37-2 has the older 'short frame' (or 'pre-Magnum' frame if you prefer) ... while my 642-1 has the long frame.
The rep seemed confident toward the end of my call they had received the best info after calling over to Production, and even mentioned that maybe they should stop telling people that those particular guns were +P rated. If someone were to experience a damaged 37 from that run of 37's because of the use of +P ammunition, and the barrel on their particular 37 had the +P language, I suspect that S&W would cheerfully replace their gun with another one.
I sure don't claim to have the definitive answer to this subject, though.
Maybe anyone interested in these guns, and whether +P ammunition is approved for use in them, ought to consider calling the factory themselves and satisfying their own curiosity, as well as examining their particular gun received and seeing whether the caliber markings on the barrel displays the standard .38 S&W Special or .38 S&W SPL +P. Easy enough to do.
When it comes right down to it, however, wouldn't you think that being able to buy a NIB 37-2 sans ILS and without MIM parts ... even if it wasn't rated for +P ammunition ... would still be a nice addition to a collection?
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Having also tried to research and follow the small debate on the 37-2s, I have decided to treat mine as not rated for +P. (Others will do as they see fit.) They have none of the earmarks of the +P versions as I have come to understand them, larger frame, radiused corners of the cylinder window, integral cylinder stop, and (I believe) a somewhat thicker top strap. Would I hesitate to load and fire +P in the gun to save my hide? Absolutely not. Do I shoot +P rounds through mine? No. I have a good supply of the old Federal Nyclad 125 grain standard pressure load. I absolutely do believe the very good 135 grain short-barrel load from Speer is too hot for them. Speer claims at least 20,000 psi for that load, per their technical specs. When the Model 37 was designed the upper limit for +P was 18,500 psi. Many today say it has raised to 20,000 psi but that does not mean an alloy J-frame designed in the era of 18,500 is appropriate to fire them over the longer haul. They are beautiful little guns and I see no reason to abuse them based upon conjecture with little or no conclusive information. To me, checking different sources (especially on internet forums) only until I get the answer I want is not sufficient evidence of +P worthiness especially since I purchased them on my nickel, not someone else's. It will be interesting to see if the 642s are old frame or new frame. They sound good.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
The_Shootist
Member
Well
If non-lock 642's are available - I'll be at my favorite gunship Monday 9am to check this out.
I thought my upcoming weeks holidays were gonna be boring - mayb e not!
If non-lock 642's are available - I'll be at my favorite gunship Monday 9am to check this out.
I thought my upcoming weeks holidays were gonna be boring - mayb e not!
I don't know if I'll shoot only standard pressure or +P through my bobbed-hammer M37 when I get it. I'll check out the frame though, and if it has the elongated cylinder stop, it'll be the j-magnum frame (that magnum frame pic #2 is an Airlite of course).
fastbolt
Member
All this talk of limited releases of non-ILS 37-2's and whatever revision number the 642's may be has gotten me to thinking about looking around for a 638 again.
I've always had a fondness for the Bodyguard model and would like to have a lightweight version to complement my older 649. My preference would be to find one in excellent condition made 'pre-ILS', but also made on the longer frame and rated for +P.
Anybody know off-hand which model number revision that might be?
Lacking finding one which fills that criteria, I'm inclined to pick up a M40 made without the ILS, even though it's all-steel.
Still like to have a 638 made w/o the ILS and rated for +P, though.
I've always had a fondness for the Bodyguard model and would like to have a lightweight version to complement my older 649. My preference would be to find one in excellent condition made 'pre-ILS', but also made on the longer frame and rated for +P.
Anybody know off-hand which model number revision that might be?
Lacking finding one which fills that criteria, I'm inclined to pick up a M40 made without the ILS, even though it's all-steel.
Still like to have a 638 made w/o the ILS and rated for +P, though.
fastbolt
Member
Thanks.
I think I'm going to add the pre-ILS 638 (specifically the 638-2) to my short list of used S&W's I'd like to find sitting in the used display case in some small gun store. I plan to leave CA sometime next year (after retirement), and hope to find more of a selection of used guns in the state in which I retire.
A late production model 6906 is on that short list, too, although I could certainly make do with one of the early production models as long as the major components are in good enough condition. I'd likely replace some of the smaller parts with some of the newer revised/improved parts, anyway.
Wouldn't mind picking up a late production 5906 for simple range enjoyment, either, or even a late production 5906TSW after the 9mm caliber marking on the barrel hood changed from small to large alpha/numerals (slight change in the chamber walls shape, if I recall).
And I don't want to even get started on what I'd like to do when it comes to filling in some gaps in my revolver collection when it comes to K&L frames.
At least I finally got my Colt collection about where it satisfies me now ... meaning I own 4 of them. Not a lot, but enough for my needs.
I think I'm going to add the pre-ILS 638 (specifically the 638-2) to my short list of used S&W's I'd like to find sitting in the used display case in some small gun store. I plan to leave CA sometime next year (after retirement), and hope to find more of a selection of used guns in the state in which I retire.
A late production model 6906 is on that short list, too, although I could certainly make do with one of the early production models as long as the major components are in good enough condition. I'd likely replace some of the smaller parts with some of the newer revised/improved parts, anyway.
Wouldn't mind picking up a late production 5906 for simple range enjoyment, either, or even a late production 5906TSW after the 9mm caliber marking on the barrel hood changed from small to large alpha/numerals (slight change in the chamber walls shape, if I recall).
And I don't want to even get started on what I'd like to do when it comes to filling in some gaps in my revolver collection when it comes to K&L frames.
At least I finally got my Colt collection about where it satisfies me now ... meaning I own 4 of them. Not a lot, but enough for my needs.
only1asterisk
member
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J frame S&W's are of no particular use to me, but I hope these sell. Maybe if these sell well, S&W might find it in their heartscorporate interest to make some lock-free MIM-free K and N frames.
David
David
ArchAngelCD
Member.
My LGS called RSR today to order a non-ILS M642 for me. His rep told him he is getting 700 in tomorrow, Tuesday 7/22/08 and of the 700 coming in only 7 are still available. (well, now only 6 since mine is also shipping tomorrow) It looks like the word got out fast since all but 6 of the 700 are sold before RSR even got them in.
Like I said, they are receiving an order of 700 from S&W on 7/22/08 and will be shipping to the LGS the same day. I should have my NO LOCK M642 by Thursday.
Now if they would only produce some no-lock M638's I would be very happy. I would have bought a M638 instead of the M642 it it was available since the Bodyguard frame is my favorite J frame.
I've been looking for a M38-3 or M638-2 for the past 6 months without any luck. I'm glad I saw this thread and was able to order before they were all gone. It's not a Bodyguard but it's a very close second...
Like I said, they are receiving an order of 700 from S&W on 7/22/08 and will be shipping to the LGS the same day. I should have my NO LOCK M642 by Thursday.
Now if they would only produce some no-lock M638's I would be very happy. I would have bought a M638 instead of the M642 it it was available since the Bodyguard frame is my favorite J frame.
I've been looking for a M38-3 or M638-2 for the past 6 months without any luck. I'm glad I saw this thread and was able to order before they were all gone. It's not a Bodyguard but it's a very close second...
The_Shootist
Member
Ok
Ordered mine today. dealer was pretty confident could be picked up by Thursday.
Now the REAL fun begins - new grips - new holster - new load (probably BB Standard pressure .38's).
Ordered mine today. dealer was pretty confident could be picked up by Thursday.
Now the REAL fun begins - new grips - new holster - new load (probably BB Standard pressure .38's).
The_Shootist
Member
Nod
Yeah it is - price range $419 - $ 429 seem to be the going rate. Paid $ 429 for mine. Without the locak, its worth it, my first Smith in 10 yrs.
Yeah it is - price range $419 - $ 429 seem to be the going rate. Paid $ 429 for mine. Without the locak, its worth it, my first Smith in 10 yrs.
Phydeaux642
Member
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- 1,886
My LGS called me today and mine will be here tomorrow. I'm glad that I ordered early.
I'm glad that I ordered early.Phydeaux642
Member
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I just picked up my new no-lock 642. It is marked 642-1, MIM trigger, DCMxxxx serial number, funky looking crown like most of these little guns have now and dirty as heck around the forcing cone. No pimple, though.
johnnylaw53
Member
ok i may have to eat some crow here, i have stated a couple of times that the lock don't really bug me that much my 642 have never given me any problems and I do think that the people that blame everything bad on the lock just want to fuss about something. Now that a no lock 642 can be had I'm thinking maybe that a good thing. Talked to the guy at the gun shop today and he have several coming in his price is 475.00 and have offer me 350.00 for mine 642. so i'm thinking about it I guess the question is, is it worth 125.00 to have one without the lock? If i decide to let the money goes i guess that mean the lock bug me more then I wanted to admit. Need to make my mind up by Friday that when he expect them in.
be safe
be safe
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I ordered my revolver on Monday, RSR Group got their initial delivery of 700 on Tuesday and shipped the same day. I picked up my revolver today (Wed.) at 5:00 PM. Since my dealer ordered only 1 gun he didn't get as good a price as some of the other here since you don't get the better prices unless you make an order of $800 or more. My revolver cost me $432 +tax which still isn't that bad IMO. BTW, on Monday after I placed my order there were only 6 M642's left of the 700 that were coming in on Tuesday. As of Tuesday all 700 were already sold so there are NONE currently available for delivery unless you got 1 of the 6 that were still available on Monday.
BTW, you will see from the serial # these are new revolvers manufactured in 2008, not old stock. This M642 is on the Magnum J frame, has a MIM trigger, is rated for +P ammo and has NO LOCK!
Here ya go:
BTW, you will see from the serial # these are new revolvers manufactured in 2008, not old stock. This M642 is on the Magnum J frame, has a MIM trigger, is rated for +P ammo and has NO LOCK!
Here ya go:
Shade00
Member
It looks..... so smooth without the lock!
pharmer
Member
Truly a thing of beauty. Hope I get one before they go away. That is, unless S&W actually responds to consumers desire. Joe
From the dealer that sold me a NIB bobbed hammer M37 (eta: DiscountGunDealer.com has 1 M37-2 and 6 642-1s left)::
Pictures that he took while awaiting my personal check. I'm talking about a GREAT dealer. Simply beautiful. NIB Smith & Wesson Model 37-2, post-MIM, post-Internal lock:
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Matt-J2
Member
I must admit, it does look rather nice without the lock there.
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