Long .223 thread... bear with me please

[BigMacMI]

Ok. I will try to keep things organized:

1: Spikes Lower with PSA upper .225/5.56 AR.
2: 55g Winchester FMJBT 24g 2.240 (from a workup using 2.225-2.260 in .005/.010 jumps for 'accuracy'). Not guaranteed once fired brass (range pickups)
3. Have put ~1000 of this load through gun previously. 1 prior similar malfunction (#4)
4. Malfunction 1/2 way into a mag on a 3 gun stage. Bullet put into chamber, inability to go fully into battery, no fire, then trying to clear malfunction, bullet will not exit chamber (had to mortar it essentially to get it out). saved round for later examination. Re-shoot (kind RO). NO additional problems
5. Next stage, 1st round same malfunction as 4 (saved round). SLIGHTLY easily clearing because I did not use FA. Finished my day with steel factory (Tula) that I bring with for 'emergency'.
6. I clean firearm after each range session. Wipe and re-lube upper, and patch the barrel
7. Previous 4-500 rounds were lubed with Lee case lube, have recently changed to one-shot. I do not re-tumble after or clean the loaded rounds because it said 'helps smooth action and ejection' somewhere on the bottle or something. (foreshadowing?)

Backstory. All match rounds are checked in Lyman chamber gauge (go/no-go) and pass.

I brought the 2 questionable rounds home. Both passed the Lyman gauge check. But stuck when plunking in barrel (out of gun, no berm at home to fully function check them). Tried couple times. No measurements at throat, shoulder etc, seem to be off, rolls smooth on a plate of glass.

I am at the point where I am no longer confident in my reloads for match ammo. BUT. I did clean the CHAMBER with a .38 mop and brush, pass a patch with some remoil through and everything plunked and dropped out freely.

I spent a ton of time trying to work through this all to come to the conclusion it could have been a dirty barrel... anything I am missing here? My working theory is dirty and buildup from the waxy lee lube I was using prior (much more space occupying than the one-shot).

 

[Walkalong]

55g Winchester FMJBT 24g 2.240 (from a workup using 2.225-2.260 in .005/.010 jumps for 'accuracy')

You can't use those two things together.

For 3 gun all you need is reasonable accuracy. Function is by far the most important thing. Seat the bullets to the cannelure. If you crimp, do it lightly. Do you? If so, you might have slightly buckled a few shoulders. It's very easy to do.

Get a Sheridan or JP Rifles case gauge. They check diameter as well as shoulder position and length.

 

[BigMacMI]

You can't use those two things together.

For 3 gun all you need is reasonable accuracy. Function is by far the most important thing. Seat the bullets to the cannelure. If you crimp, do it lightly. Do you? If so, you might have slightly buckled a few shoulders. It's very easy to do.

Get a Sheridan or JP Rifles case gauge. They check diameter as well as shoulder position and length.

HAHA. I agree totally... that is why I put it in '...'. The groups were MAYBE better at that length, and it lined up with the cannelure decently. Crimping is VERY light if any. I may even stop all together. I think the shoulder issue is reasonable culprit.

My loads were good enough for poppers (standard and small) at 75 yards with my 3moa dot 5 shots for 4 poppers... close enough for minute of bad guy. I will look into those gauges. I would like something for length as well. save on the trimming time to eliminate non-suspect cases!!

 

[Walkalong]

I just trim all cases every time using a WFT chucked up in a small hobby lathe. Debur/chamfer/tumble again, ready to load. Quick, easy, peace of mind. There are other options that trim/deburr/chamfer all in one pass.

Giraud, Trim -It II, maybe others.

 

[Dudedog]

Really like my WFT, money well spent.
I do like Walkalong and just run all the brass thru my WFT. If it needs it it get trimmed, if not it doesn't. Faster to me than measuring to see if they need to be trimmed.

Remember a clean gun is a happy gun.​

 

[cfullgraf]

Not guaranteed once fired brass (range pickups)

Also, range pick-up cases not fired in your rifle can be a recipe for problems.

If competing, I'd load new cases or only cases previously fired in your rifle. Save the stuff of questionable origins for practice.

Of course, once a case has been fired in your rifle, it would be good to be used in competition.

I learned this the hard way when I was shooting Service Rifle.

 

[Blue68f100]

Using mixed range brass will give a random sizing results. All depends on how hard the brass as become and varying amount of spring back. I would anneal all brass just to get them all the same state. It's part of my hand loading process for my AR's. Doing this even allows those MG cartridges to size properly the first time. And as others have said sizing can be an issue, and COAL. I, like others, run all my brass through a press mounted trimmer. It's faster than checking then setting aside to trim as needed.

Now since you said they all passed a case gauge, brings things back to dirty chamber till you said it ran fine with factory. Which kicks it back to something out of spec on your handloads. I'm leaning toward the brass of unknown origin.

 

[earplug]

If your not using a small base sizing die you might consider getting one.
For the sake of knowledge try another rifle chamber to see if the rounds will seat.
Mark the rounds with a felt tip pen and see where they stick when you chamber them. take some measurements to see it there in spec.
Do you deprime, tumble then resize your cases? Is it posible a unsized case got loaded?

 

[cfullgraf]

Get a Sheridan or JP Rifles case gauge. They check diameter as well as shoulder position and length.

Right.

Other case gauges such as Dillon or Wilson only check shoulder position and over all length. They are cut generously in the diameter dimensions. A case can gauge correctly in one of these gauges but still not chamber in a rifle.

I have one AR-15 with a 5.56 NATO. Cases fired in this rifle and full length sized with a standard sizing die will not chamber in a couple of my rifles that have a 223 Wylde or 223 Remington chambers. But they do gauge correctly in my case gauge and will chamber properly in the 5.56 NATO chambered rifle.

Not wanting to start a small base die debate because frequently they really are not needed, but I decided long ago to just small base size all my 223 Remington cases and eliminate the problem. Cheap insurance to help improve reliable operation.

The variation in tolerances between chambers and sizing dies complicate the situation and causes endless debates on the matter because some folks have issues and some do not.

Small base sizing dies size the case just a bit smaller down at the base. The difference in sizing between sizing with a small base sizing dies and standard sizing dies is undetectable with my calipers, but the chamber can sure tell.

 

[hdwhit]

I would recommend removing the lubricant after you resize whether the manufacturer says it is necessary or not.

If the lube is still on the case when fired and the case wall is pushed up against the chamber by 50,000 pounds of pressure, its reasonable to assume some of it may stay on the chamber wall when brass rebounds and the last thing you need on the walls of your chamber is a waxy buildup - just think of all the furniture polish commercials on television.

 

[hdwhit]

I have enough experience with my rifles over the past 30+ years to know that they will all happily injest rounds coming from my standard dies, but for most people shooting auto-loading rifles, small base dies should generally be considered - particularly if your rounds are going into more than one gun.

 

[ponchh]

I'm with Walkalong on the Trim it ll. I knock out a lot of brass in a hurry and if there is a problem with the shoulder the bearing won't let the case reach the trim head. I learned a couple of things to make it a lot faster and easier but that's another story

 

[Kaldor]

I would examine your brass prep method. I would verify you are fully sizing the case, as in full cam over, as Ive seen guys have dies move somehow, or could have just used another 1/8 of a turn down. I wouldnt worry about using a small base die. Very few ARs require a small base die unless they are some type of match chamber. I know my Hornady dies run about midway between a small base and a regular die. I use lanolin/iso homebrew case lube, but any case lube other than OneShot should be tumbled off post sizing. You can buy a case gauge if you think it will help. Im with most of these guys, I use a WTF2, and just run every piece thru the trimmer vs checking and then trimming as you will only trim cases that are long anyway. And lastly clean your rifles chamber with a brush to get any of the Lee lube out of there as like you said I would wonder about potential buildup in the chamber from the sizing lube.

And dump those Winchester 55gr bullets. Buy the Hornadys!! I kid, but the Hornadys shoot way better than the 7 cents a piece they cost

Other than that, verify everything, clean everything, load a couple hundred and go test em out. If you shoot a few hundred, and see no stoppages, Im thinking you have it licked.

 

[Walkalong]

And dump those Winchester 55gr bullets. Buy the Hornadys!!

Ditto.

 

[hps1]

Ok.
2. Not guaranteed once fired brass (range pickups)
4. Bullet put into chamber, inability to go fully into battery, no fire, then trying to clear malfunction, bullet will not exit chamber (had to mortar it essentially to get it out). saved round for later examination. Re-shoot (kind RO). NO additional problems
5. Next stage, 1st round same malfunction as 4 (saved round). Finished my day with steel factory (Tula) that I bring with for 'emergency'.
6. I clean firearm after each range session. Wipe and re-lube upper, and patch the barrel
7. I do not re-tumble after or clean the loaded rounds because it said 'helps smooth action and ejection' somewhere on the bottle or something. (foreshadowing?)

Backstory. All match rounds are checked in Lyman chamber gauge (go/no-go) and pass.

I brought the 2 questionable rounds home. Both passed the Lyman gauge check. But stuck when plunking in barrel (out of gun, no berm at home to fully function check them). Tried couple times. No measurements at throat, shoulder etc, seem to be off, rolls smooth on a plate of glass.
BUT. I did clean the CHAMBER with a .38 mop and brush, pass a patch with some remoil through and everything plunked and dropped out freely.

I spent a ton of time trying to work through this all to come to the conclusion it could have been a dirty barrel... anything I am missing here? My working theory is dirty and buildup from the waxy lee lube I was using prior (much more space occupying than the one-shot).

1) I suspect you are on right track cleaning chamber.
I like to clean chamber as well as bore after every range session. You mention shooting steel case ammo; believe someone else has already mentioned this but very common for varnish coating from steel cases to build up in chambers making chamber cleaning all the more important.

2) Another possible problem area I see is the range pickup brass.
Someone has already mentioned the fact that there is no guarantee as to # of times pickup cases have been fired (or size of chamber fired in, which can call for small base die). Each firing hardens cases and causes "spring back" after sizing. The harder the case, the more spring back. This can cause chambering problems as is mentioned in quotation below*. The AR BCG is designed so that the firing pin is too short to be exposed until bolt is pushed back into carrier sufficiently so that lugs should be locked which would prevent firing out of battery, but any round that does not fully chamber in most semi-auto rifles can be disastrous if slam fire occurs before bolt is in battery.

A slamfire in either the M1 or M14 can have disastrous results if it occurs before the bolt is in battery. The bolt design of the AR would seem to make firing out of battery nearly impossible since the firing pin is not long enough to reach the primer until bolt locks.

Lack of care in following careful reloading practices or a bit of debris on bolt face, or perhaps a broken firing pin, combined with a soft primer could cause a slamfire.

While the following concerns the M1, hopefully it will illustrate what can happen should a rifle slamfire while not in battery. I have personal knowledge of several other such events that I did not actually witness. One was an M14 using military issue ammo in which the shooter received some serious injuries, so the hard primer is not absolute insurance against a slamfire.

A friend who is a very experienced highpower competitor and reloader wrecked his match grade M1 Garand using the same handloads he had used for years when the rifle slam fired out of battery. Bent his op-rod, blew extractor/ejector out of bolt and rounded the receiver locking lug recess about 1/8" showing the bolt lug (thankfully) had barely entered the recess but was not fully in battery at the time the slamfire occurred. He received a cut on the forehead and had somewhat of a problem with his trigger control for a while thereafter. Fortunately, the rifle, and his shooting ability have since been restored.

Upon examination of the remaining lot of ammo, we found that the rounds did not have sufficient headspace (clearance) in his snug, match chamber. He had loaded this batch of ammo using the same (full length) die setting as always. Remember, all previous lots had measured OK. The problem stemmed from the fact that this particular lot of brass had been fired at least 8 times and had work hardened. His dies had been set to give proper headspace with once fired brass and he failed to check headspace on this lot after loading. The harder brass springs back more than softer brass after sizing which resulted in oversized (for his chamber)rounds.

Ammo is probably the number one cause of slam fires in the Garand & M14. Anything that can cause the round to "stop short" of full chambering can result in the firing pin hitting the primer with sufficient force to set it off. If this occurs before the bolt is in battery, it can be disastrous! Other issues that can cause a slam fire are dirty chamber, broken firing pin or a pin that is no longer free floating for whatever reason.

Soft primers can contribute to a slam fire. The CCI #34 & #41 military primers have a hard cup to duplicate GI ammo, most of which is loaded with a hard primer. Handloaders must be aware of two other factors that can result in slam fires.

First, make it a practice to run your thumb over the primer as each round is removed from the press to be sure that the primer is fully seated. Secondly, each cartridge must be sized sufficiently to fit your rifle's chamber giving proper headspace clearance. I would not load for any "gas gun" without using a cartridge case headspace gauge.

3)You did not mention whether you trimmed all your cases in this lot of reloads.
Personally, while I do not crimp, I trim every time I reload as I use the simple Lee hand trimmer in cordless drill and its as easy to trim 'em all as it is to measure, sort & trim those that need it. (Additionally, extremely long cases can cause high pressures if case cannot open sufficiently to release bullet.) Any rate, if crimping, case length must be identical on all cases or you can end up applying crimp before bullet is fully seated. This can cause a bulge at case shoulder as described here: http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2899093&#Post2899093 This can prevent case from chambering freely and become stuck in chamber if forced (as w/forward assist).

Suspect you problem was dirty chamber or perhaps a "rolled" shoulder as described in above link.

Regards,
hps

 

[BigMacMI]

Well, went out after a good clean. Both previous cases of question chambered and fired without issue (chambered 2x out of mag before attempt to fire, there was no setback etc).

I measure all brass and trim anything beyond 1.755 with Lee power trim. My brass prep is full length size/deprime. I have not been tumbling between there and loading. I will add that to the processing. I am also not opposed to the small base die.

Thank you all for your experience and insights.

 

[Dudedog]

Loaded all my .223 with Lee dies, no issues with an AR or Mini 14. (using mixed range brass as well, once fired primers still crimped, or brass I have reloaded before mixed as well)
Like to mark the base of my brass with a sharpie so I know it's mine.
Some guns might need small base dies, mine don't.

Glad everything was ok after cleaning the rifle, it's nice when you find an easy answer.

 

[Danoobie]

I also like the wax lube. I make a point of carefully wiping it off,
during my final QC check, as I look at COAL, check the crimps,
mic for bulges, cracks, etc.

 

[someguy2800]

As others have mentioned small base sizing dies can be the cure for chambering issues and may provide some extra leeway when things get dirty.