Long Distance Self-Defense Rifle

[Bigfoot]

If you really think you are going to be trading long-distance lead with zombies when the SHTF, you really should think about spending more money now.

Crap! Zombies shoot guns now? At long range too? I've seen how the newer ones, especially the obese femles can run really fast so I geared up for that, but if they are shooting and even sniping now then I need to rethink my zombie fighting gun.

 

[WardenWolf]

I'd have to vote PSL. Semi-auto, low recoil, long range, high power, very accurate. Light weight, too. You can rescope it however you want.

 

[JShirley]

500 meters would be stretching its performance envelope, but you should be able to get a Kel Tec SU-16 for that kind of money. Neat, handy little rifle that takes M16/AR-15 mags.

Here's the C model.

Here's the CA model.

In my experience, Kel Tecs usually go for 20-30% less than MSRP, so this and some mags should stay in your budget. If you already have some .223 and a low-power scope, that is.

I see I'm neglecting some of your questions. .223 is a good defensive caliber because it has little recoil, is flat-shooting within reasonable defensive distances, is powerful enough, is easy to find, and is small and light enough that a good amount can be carried by a reasonably fit person. Other reasonable defensive cartridges include the 7.62x39mm (more close range power, less distance) and 5.45x39mm (cheaper rifles, cheaper ammunition, more range than 7.62x39, less range than .223).

More powerful cartridges can be used, but they are heavier, have more recoil, and cost more.

I don't know you, but don't get stuck into believing that only what gunshop commandos "know" you should have is what will work for you. I think a really good general purpose rifle for most U.S. shooters is the CZ 527 in 7.62x39mm. Light, handy, reasonably priced, and shoots a caliber that is big enough for close deer-sized game but has little recoil and is inexpensive. Other good defensive choices could include a new M1 Carbine or something really different like a Kel-Tec Sub2000 in .40 caliber. With a Sub-2000, you would be limiting yourself to 120 meter effective defensive range, and could only take very close shots if you decided you needed to harvest deer with it, but it's small enough to fit in a survival pack or keep in a small locked case in a vehicle for "reactive" situations. IOW, when you wanted something that was easy to keep with you, but that could outrange standard handguns.

Hope this helps,

John

 

[jwalker497]

Would the Ruger Mini 14 be a good choice?

 

[UnTainted]

Long range and SD & the COMMON DEFENSE

I don't have a problem thinking of having to use a weapon to kill somebody at a very long range.

self defense requires (in most jurisdictions) that you have a reasonable apprehension of imminent: death, great bodily harm, rape, kidnapping.

Imminent does not HAVE to be defined entirely by distance. If you're being hunted by people clearly wanting to kill you (either SHTF or invasion or insurrection), there is no reason why you wouldn't be justified by the existing law (if it's being applied during that time) as by reasonably having that apprehension. AT that point, your 500+ yard shot, or whatever distance, is still self defense.

Now, the use of a weapon for the Common Defense (I'm pulling this term from U.S. v. Miller (1939); from U.S. Constitution Art. 1, Section 8; and from the unwritten concepts of the preamble of the Second Amendment, as interpreted by Miller), could be far more beneficial if it is a weapon able of being used at long ranges.

 

[eye5600]

For some reason, the sequence M1 -> M14 -> Mini-14 doesn't work for most people. I wonder why.

I question the need for semi-auto in a long range weapon. At the ranges where you have to aim, and aim carefully, to hit even a stationary target, you don't lose much by having to work a bolt.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Would the Ruger Mini 14 be a good choice?

Not really. I own a Mini, and it's a great gun for its intended purpose, but a long distance rifle it is not.

 

[JShirley]

jwalker,

I guess what most people aren't quite clear about is if you mean "long distance self defense" (and mean "greater than typical handgun range") rifle or "long distance/self-defense rifle".

In other words, what do you mean? How are you defining long distance? If you mean a rifle meant to cover anything between contact distance to maybe 300 meters, practically any semiautomatic carbine in the rifle calibers I mentioned will work. If you mean a dedicated long distance (350 meters plus) rifle, you should probably look for a bolt-action rifle. One of the ones you own may already be perfectly suitable.

My general purpose /disaster rifle is a sporterized 1903 Springfield with 2-8x scope. My dedicated short-to-intermediate defensive rifle is a 16" AR carbine. You should realistically evaluate your needs or mission for this platform before making any decisions. You should especially evaluate what you mean by "long distance".

If you really want an inexpensive autoloader for close range, a Sub2000 in 9mm or .40 would allow you to have a fairly high capacity shoulder arm that's light enough to take both it and your favorite bolt gun. If you faced multiple threats at closer range, the 2000 should take care of that. Past 130 meters, the bolt gun should be your choice.

The necessity of a TEOTWAWKI autoloader is overblown, in my opinion. I think most Americans will do great with a general purpose rifle that they also use to hunt deer-sized game. Bonus points if it's sturdy and takes a common cartridge such as .30-06 or .308.

John

 

[Funderb]

sks would be simple, powerful, and accurate enough. I was shooting 8" targets consistently at 200 yds standing with an sks this weekend.

 

[Arcticfox]

Seems to me that long distance, and self defense is an oxymoron.

 

[ExtremeSquared]

Self defense against the army? Really, i'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the scenario.

 

[X-Rap]

I have a lot less problem with this thread than the Whats the best Sniper Rifle Threads
If a person puts a rifle into his self defence plan should the sights be hammered off or ammo down loaded so it is ineffective past 25 yds?
I like the concept of using a handgun to fight my way to my rifle personally.

 

[Interceptor_Knight]

If you are benty on a semiauto, just get yourself a SKS and practice with it. It is the least expensive readily available option. You can buy a set of Tech-Sights if all you want is iron, or put whatever optics your heart desires. Take your SKS and 400 rounds to an Appleseed which will give you the tools you need to hit targets out to 400 yds consistently.
If you want real world advice, let me tell you that you will never need a semiauto for long distance self defense.

The SKS is now a "long distance" self-defense rifle.
If you really think you are going to be trading long-distance lead with zombies when the SHTF, you really should think about spending more money now.

300 yards is long distance for most people. Few hunting shots are taken at that distance. The reality is that a SKS is all you "need" for 300 yd shooting with a semiauto....

 

[orphanedcowboy]

Long range + Self Defense = Oxymoron

Long distance? Escape and Evade.

Amen to that

 

[skeet king]

get a jg sales romainian PSL, it's 10 rounds of 7.62x54 with a really nice range rinding reticle for around 600 bucks i think

 

[Interceptor_Knight]

Would the Ruger Mini 14 be a good choice?

Nothing wrong with a Mini 14. The new production rifles are easily under 2MOA which is twice as accurate than you really "need".

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Seems to me that long distance, and self defense is an oxymoron.

Is that because you don't think people can hurt you at longer than CQB distances?

Let's see, where have there been longer distance shootings where the bad guys engaged good guys and good guys might have been a lot better off if they had rifles....?

UT Clocktower sniper (already mentioned)
Watts Riots
various mall shootings
various school shootings
Shooting on the square, Tyler, Texas
Chai Soua Vang in Wisconsin incident
DC Snipers

Most/all involved the bad guys with long guns.

For the task described, I like the idea of a carbine, be it an AK, SKS, or other shorter-barreled rifle. If you don't want a semi-auto, then I would suggest a larger capacity magazine fed bolt gun, but with a shorter barrel.

You will still get plenty of reach with a carbine, but it will be more compact for easier storage.

 

[Interceptor_Knight]

Is that because you don't think people can hurt you at longer than CQB distances?

Let's see, where have there been longer distance shootings where the bad guys engaged good guys and good guys might have been a lot better off if they had rifles....?

UT Clocktower sniper (already mentioned)
Watts Riots
various mall shootings
various school shootings
Shooting on the square, Tyler, Texas
Chai Soua Vang in Wisconsin incident
DC Snipers

DC Snipers were close distance. The other hunters who Vang murdered had rifles but were not prepared mentally to shoot at another human. Clock tower was defeated by rushing the tower. Malls and schools are CQB distances etc and etc.....
Nobody is going to be walking around the mall with a rifle. In most cases where someone is more than 50M away, you do not need a rifle as you can evade. In the Hollywood bank shootout, the police were offensively shooting. They deliberately engaged the bad guys while being under armed. The average person on the street could have ran the other way and been just fine.
Carbine defensive distances are not long distances. If you assume that you may someday need a rifle for gang bangers in your neighborhood, you only need to engage them in relatively short distances (200 yds and under). For long distances 300 yds+, the odds of you needing to be shooting defensively are nil. A bolt action rifle with a scope would suit you well.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Clock tower was defeated by rushing the tower.

The DPS officers on scene said they would not have been able to rush the tower if "civilians" with rifles had not kept Whitman's head down.

In most cases where someone is more than 50M away, you do not need a rifle as you can evade.

That depends on what your own personal morality is. The Tyler courthouse shootings show a man whose personal morality would not lallow for "evading" while a nutcase gunned down his ex wife and child. Unfortunately he tried to do the right thing with a handgun rather than a rifle.

 

[Coyote_Hunter_]

Long range + Self Defense = Oxymoron

Long distance? Escape and Evade.
__________________
Pilot

Not necessarily the case in a SHTF scenario. Depends on a number of factors including:
A. The environment
B. Who you are protecting other than yourself

 

[UnTainted]

Love that factor B., Coyote Hunter! Good perspective.

 

[sublimaze41]

To me it's simple....

Garand, tough, proven, fun to shoot and easy to shoot well.

AK and SKS might be fine, but try and find the ammo.

The most popular caliber for rifles is .30-06. If you can't find ammo for that then it's really serious. Ya gotz to be able to feed your rifle.

 

[556A2]

Nearly any RIFLE caliber in nearly any rifle platform.

Don't discount bolt-actions and/or lever-actions. Read up on "The Mad Minute" with the Lee Enfield, or watch some Cowboy Action shooters run a lever-action.

EDIT

In before: You shouldn't use ________________ in a SHTF situation because of some theoretical issue with ________________.

Any rifle that you are well trained with, and have ammo for is a great choice. From a $69 M91/30 to a $2000 tricked-out AR-15.

 

[Defense Minister]

If I understand your question correctly, when you say "long distance", you mean relative to your shotguns and pistols. That being the case, the Mini-14 would be a fine choice, and you should be able to find one to fit your budget.

My primary defensive rifle is a Mini, and I love it. You will hear all the AR lovers bash the Mini, but I put about a hundred bucks and a little of my time into mine and it shoots MOA all day long. That is much better than either of the ARs I used to own, and one of them was a 20" Colt Match H-Bar. The Ruger barrel may not hold up to repetitive fire the way the AR chrome-lined barrels do, but, unless you are at war, it doesn't have to.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

IK, apparently you think that just because rifles are not commonly used for self defense purposes at greater than normal pistol distances that rifles would not be useful. That would be in error.

DC Snipers were close distance.

They were further that most folks shoot pistols, out to 150 yards.

The other hunters who Vang murdered had rifles but were not prepared mentally to shoot at another human.

That does not mean that rifles would not have been very useful for their defense, does it?

Clock tower was defeated by rushing the tower.

Yes, but under the assault of 10s of shooters on the ground using rifles that kept Whitman occupied (see http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Charles-Whitman ). Most of his targets were within 400 yards, certainly within the range of rifle caliber carbines, although his longest shot was a bit over 700 yards.

Malls and schools are CQB distances etc and etc.....

Folks shot in malls are often shot at distances greater than most folks use pistols. Some people shot at Columbine were shot in excess of 50 yards. As noted, Whitman's shots were out to 700+ yards.

Nobody is going to be walking around the mall with a rifle.

Ah, but managers or employees in stores at the mall could easily have long guns. Besides, bad guys manage to walk around the malls with rifles. However, that isn't the point, is it? Given the length of shooting events, such as at the Tacoma Mall, a person would have time to retreive a rifle from the parking lot.

In most cases where someone is more than 50M away, you do not need a rifle as you can evade.

Well gee, in most cases, you can evade lots of threats, but that doesn't make it always prudent, does it? In fact, in most cases, you don't even need a gun, do you?

Even if you can evade, it may not be the most prudent option depending on the circumstances.

In the Hollywood bank shootout, the police were offensively shooting. They deliberately engaged the bad guys while being under armed. The average person on the street could have ran the other way and been just fine.

Protecting the public isn't offensively shooting.

Carbine defensive distances are not long distances.

Really? Just how far do carbines shoot? I regularly shoot mine to 400 yards, occasionally out to 600. Carbines will certainly work well out to the 300 requested in the OP.