Long range limits of the .223 as varmint round?

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I have to disagree with you too.
A 70gr tsx will show no sign of expansion at 500 yards out of a .223.

All it will do to a coyote is shoot a .22 cal hole through him.
If you get lucky and break the sping or hit him in the head it will kill him.
Otherwise, probably not so much, and you will have a long trail to follow..

rc
 
rc-

you stated that there was a 275yrd max on a 223/556. I gave you a clear example that out to 350 it had deadly explosive performance. I listed my bullet weight and powder so as to give a full picture of the situation. so your initial limit of 275 I believe to be false. now I ended that with saying he would need the correct bullet. the 70gr tsx may not be that bullet. and given a 1:9 twist I would say it's not.

for a few examples a 62 gr tsx will exit with a normal load right @ 3000fps
with it's bc that will bring it down to somwhere near 1550 @500. that is near the performance range for a tsx.

a 68 gr hornady will be moving around 1700 many bullets will perform well in these velocity ranges. there will be some variables, but for coyotes these numbers would be well suiteable. and moved down to 400 yrds these are great numbers. I understand that a 7mm rem mag, or a 300 wby mag, or even 243 are far superior, but the ops has none of those. so for what he is working with he is GTG! I would be, although I would be using my coyote sniper 243. but i have both. the op asked about 223
 
i have an AR 223 AI and am getting decent performance out to ~550 with the Nosler 69 Comp and the 65 SGK--all of about 5 shots so far. Killed a dog last season at 470 yds. with the SGK and i knew it was dead before the bullet hit him. It fell off the back of a dike at the shot and killed the dog very quickly. Shots beyond ~400 or so oughtta' be taken only under ideal conditions though...IMO.

If a guy has a tried and true system for reticle or turret applications to 500 yds. he'll be set. Sometimes though, that's a big assumption.
 
I have classified my .223 varmint rifle as "less than 250 yds" although i could get the shot at greater distances,using lightweight varmint loads makes it tricky beyond that with wind and such , when calling into big valleys that would need 300-400 yd shots I use my .243 with 80-grain bonded-bullets,, and then consider ANY shot almost fatal instantly (on coyote)
 
I totally like my 243 the best! I'm a 6mm junky. I would put one up against about any game. but I think with a little talent and a good load, the 223 is very viable
 
Is the 223 the only rifle you have available? I beleive it'll do the trick if ya answer to what you think is ethical. I don't fur hunt and when I have a coyote problem I normally use a 25-06 or 270. Maybe a little over kill, but it gets the job done and i don't beleive it's questionable.
 
Where I live I shoot them from my front porch from time to time.I have been shooting them with .223, 45 grn. Winchester varmint out of a 20" barreled Savage Model 16. Ranges have varied from 80yds to 317yds. Inside 250 yds they have dropped like hit by a bolt of lightning. The 317 and a 278 yarder you could see the bullet hit;a fraction of a second pause then they just fell over and never moved again. I gut shot one at 250 when my dog nudged me just as the gun went off. He went down instantly, layed there for several minutes,got up ,ran as fast as a coyote can; then dropped dead at a 560yd. tree line. These shootings involved 9 coyotes and only the one was under 100yds.
 
I'd echo mostly what was said above. .223 can kill a yote @ 500 yds but it wont be easy thats for sure. LOTS of drop and wind drift at that range. .223 cal does not have a good BC.

After around 250 yds it really starts to drop quickly. Thats why I am looking for a .243 for long range predator duty. Ill still have my AR for quick shots close in. But will be able to reach out further (300 yds plus) much easier for yotes and rock chucks.
 
On loan to me is a Bushmaster, with 4x12 variable scope and using 60 gr reloads set up for this gun.

Longest shot I have taken on a 'yote, of the 13 I have felled here on the farm is about (guesstimate) 200 yards. Most have been within 100.

Then again I ain't got good sense, and have taken some of these using fieldcraft and felled with a youth single shot 20 ga shotgun, or snub-nose revolver.

[ I may be old, but can still crawl amongst the soybeans if need be...]
 
Your best bet to buck the wind and deliver some energy will be a hot load with the 70gr BARNES TSX. These I get at 2970fps at the muzzle with a BC of .318.
Also the 75gr TAP but make sure your rate of twist is 1:8 at least, 20" barrel and no much wind. These will deliver a little over 400ft-lbs at 500yards that should be enough but it is pushing it. I would not even try with the average 55gr bullet. BC and SD too low.

Lots of folks report great success with the bergers VLDs and SMKs that provide deadly effects due to tumbling. The 75gr SMK is used in the actual NATO sniper round due to the deadly tumbling in soft targets. It was not designed for this but it does a very good job at taking living beings out.
I just checked my spreads and ballistics charts and you can put a 75gr SMK or VLD at 2850fps from a 20" AR barrel and with a Ballistic Coeficient of .400 will deliver 535lbs-ft over the animal. Plenty of punch, very accurate and time tested in all sort of matches.
I use them for target but have not tried for hunting. For that I use the 70gr TSX that is a tad slower (tad lower BC) but extremely lethal bullet and has never failed me even with white tails up to 200yards.

If you like the lightness of the AR another great option with much better bullets is the 6x45mm round. that can put an 87gr/90gr bullet at more than 600ft-lbs at 500yards with less drift from the wind. This round won many bench rest competitions back in the 70's before the BR came along and other than the barrel in 6mm the rest of the upper everything is the same. You can reuse the .223 cases or buy (expensive) but .223 case are easy to reload and cost effective. In fact this shoots flatter and delivers more energy at that range than the Remington 6.8SPC due to the great 6mm bullets and high BCs.

Then another alternative is a Grendel. This will take a 120gr TTSX bullet to 700ft-lb and will take care of the coyote at that distance though the 6x45, 6mmBR or any of the cousins are on average more accurate. It has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with the bullet selection and speed combination.

My personal preference is that when I am approaching long range I like to jump to the .308 at least and up to 800-900 yards. At this range your main worry is not the energy left but to have a very good system and training so you can actually hit the target where you want to hit it.

Regarding the humane kills there is no sane person that wants to make an animal suffer and when errors happen (and they do happen) and someone wounds the animal normally they make a natural effort to follow up quickly and finish them off. That is what a good person will do, but if not possible, as someone mentioned, the first priority is to protect the ranch, farm and/or cattle.

The above information is from my personal data and first hand experience. What works for me might not work for others based on your systems, preferences, likes and dislikes but I hope this helps you or someone.

Cheers,
E.
 
Haven't tried beyond 100yd, but my 26" Savage with 1:9 twist seems to do a good job stabilizing the 75gr Hornady BTHP Match bullet. Thinking about trying 68gr next, though...just because...
 
There is no long range hunting with the .223. Long range starts past 600yards.

If you had a .223 AI with an special mag and a really worked out load I would say 350-375yrds for a white tail and 500-550 yards (maybe a tad more for a coyote)
The biggest problem will be bullet drop (can be mastered) and the wind in .223 that is much harder.

With a very nice .223 load I would not try the yote at 500yards. Stay below 400yard. Too much below 2000fps the TSX doesn't expand well. Follow the manufacturer recommendations.

223charts.jpg

This system I Am working on it would be more suitable for longer range purpose if you want to use the .223 cases. Also the AI project mentioned here....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=564287

I hope this helps you or someone else.
Cheers,
E.
 
As far as the ethics and morality of how a varmint is killed, the primary issue is the food on the table from the net profit from the rancher's livestock.

If a thief with his gun comes into your house to steal your money or your family's food, do you really worry about a clean, ethical kill?

For sheep and goat ranchers, a coyote is a thief coming in at tooth-point to steal the real-world equivalent of money.
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Very well said, and I agree.

Coyotes are shoot on sight for me. I'm as concerned about a "clean kill" on a predator as I am the price of tea in China.

BikerRN
 
Same deal for house flies, mosquitoes and cockroaches[/QUOTE

For the Mosquitoes- I see nothing wrong with as slow and painful a death as you can imagine. The .223 may be a little over kill for those critters.:D
The Coyote, even if a nuisance, should be "dispatched" with as much accuracy as possible.
Click to expand...
 
Code: 
_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     100     200     300     400     500 | YARDS
308 M118LR        0.51* 2650 >    0.00    0.65    2.69    6.25   11.49   18.56 | wind (inches)
260 139           0.615 2900 >    0.00    0.46    1.89    4.35    7.93   12.71 | wind (inches)
243WIN 105 LAP    0.530 3050 >    0.00    0.50    2.05    4.75    8.69   13.98 | wind (inches)
243WIN 90         0.450 3050 >    0.00    0.59    2.44    5.68   10.45   16.91 | wind (inches)
243 70 NBT        0.310 3250 >    0.00    0.80    3.34    7.89   14.75   24.31 | wind (inches)
77gr 223          0.365 2700 >    0.00    0.87    3.64    8.57   15.94   26.14 | wind (inches)
223 69SMK         0.305 2800 >    0.00    1.00    4.21    9.98   18.77   31.09 | wind (inches)
55gr 223          0.240 3200 >    0.00    1.07    4.53   10.88   20.75   34.91 | wind (inches)

308 M118LR        0.51* 2650 >   -0.00    0.00    1.86    4.53    7.63   11.10 | drop (moa)
260 139           0.615 2900 >   -0.00    0.00    1.35    3.41    5.79    8.40 | drop (moa)
243WIN 105 LAP    0.530 3050 >   -0.00    0.00    1.17    3.06    5.27    7.74 | drop (moa)
243WIN 90         0.450 3050 >   -0.00    0.00    1.21    3.18    5.52    8.17 | drop (moa)
243 70 NBT        0.310 3250 >   -0.00    0.00    1.08    2.99    5.38    8.24 | drop (moa)
77gr 223          0.365 2700 >   -0.00    0.00    1.89    4.69    8.06   11.99 | drop (moa)
223 69SMK         0.305 2800 >   -0.00    0.00    1.78    4.54    7.95   12.06 | drop (moa)
55gr 223          0.240 3200 >   -0.00    0.00    1.26    3.50    6.42   10.11 | drop (moa)
Here are some .223 loads in comparison to some other loads.

223 isn't great at long range, and you won't get explosive terminal ballistics at 500 yards, but it isn't the worst either. In favorable conditions, a first-round hit on an 8" target at 500 yards is possible. It's all about having the skills and knowing when you can make the shot, or not.
 
I doubt someone can pick-up a loaner rifle and just load it up and hit anything at 500 yards. So the 500 yard varmint is probably pretty safe.

But, if the borrower set up some range markers of where the varmint would be, and then practiced some prone or kneeling shots on liter sized bottles at these various ranges, then the coyotes might be in for some rough times.

Remember that the military course of fire is 25 meter zero followed by man sized pop up targets from 25-500 meters while wearing helmet, body armor and fogged up safety glasses with iron sights.
 
I disagree. Pest or not I personally do not believe that is a responsible or ethical idea. I believe that if you shoot an animal that you should make EVERY effort to make it as quick and humane as possible. It eats on me for days if I am unable to find a wounded animal. Yes it can/will/does happen, but I try to do my part to see that it doesnt. Be that animal a mouse, a coyote, a wild hog, or a monster buck. All animals should garner the same amount of respect in death or the manner of death. I.E. quick and humane vs long lingering painfull.

Yes mother nature is cruel in the way things die, But personally I try not to be. YMMV
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Bravo for you and I couldn't agree more! I'm tired of seeing people trying to do something with the .223 that it wasn't designed to do. For hunting small game it's at its best to 200 yards.

And I'm disgusted with the states that let people hunt deer with that useless cartridge. It's referred to as slob hunting.

Sorry, I know I'll offend someone owning a .223 but tough. In the service the .223 was a good cartridge in Viet Nam. It may not have killed but it incapacitated the victim. And we're talking a man sized target not small game.

I had a Savage 10fp in .223 for a few years. It was fun and accurate at the range but when I tried varmint hunting with it I learned that it is inadequate.

Ended up selling it and purchasing something designed for varmint hunting, a .22-250.

Now someone will say "But look at the 69 and 75 gr bullets, they have a high bc". These are target bullets. Shoot these in a somewhat populated area and you'll get a lesson in ballistics. Instead of trying to shoot a 75 gr bullet at 2700 fps why not just get a rifle with a cartridge that will shoot a heavier bullet like a .243 Win.
 
Let's let the numbers do the talking. As a note, the .223 numbers are from a 20" barrel.
Code: 
_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     100     200     300     400     500     600 | YARDS
77gr 223          0.365 2700 >    0.00    0.87    3.64    8.57   15.94   26.14   39.54 | wind (inches)
.22-250 55        0.240 3600 >    0.00    0.93    3.90    9.29   17.58   29.40   45.56 | wind (inches)
223 69SMK         0.305 2800 >    0.00    1.00    4.21    9.98   18.77   31.09   47.47 | wind (inches)
55gr 223          0.240 3200 >    0.00    1.07    4.53   10.88   20.75   34.91   54.23 | wind (inches)

77gr 223          0.365 2700 >   -0.00    0.00    1.89    4.69    8.06   11.99   16.57 | drop (moa)
.22-250 55        0.240 3600 >   -0.00   -0.00    0.81    2.49    4.70    7.49   10.97 | drop (moa)
223 69SMK         0.305 2800 >   -0.00    0.00    1.78    4.54    7.95   12.06   16.98 | drop (moa)
55gr 223          0.240 3200 >   -0.00    0.00    1.26    3.50    6.42   10.11   14.76 | drop (moa)

77gr 223          0.365 2700 >    2700    2474    2261    2058    1867    1687    1523 | velocity (fps)
.22-250 55        0.240 3600 >    3600    3187    2813    2466    2146    1852    1586 | velocity (fps)
223 69SMK         0.305 2800 >    2800    2525    2268    2026    1801    1594    1411 | velocity (fps)
55gr 223          0.240 3200 >    3200    2825    2477    2156    1861    1594    1366 | velocity (fps)
The only other thing I'll add is that mid and long-range misses are primarily due to estimating the wind wrong.
 
Just to throw out there for comparison's sake, via Hornady's online ballistics calculator:

22-250 (1:9 twist)
75gr Berger Target VLD (BC 0.423)
3200fps (which might be sandbagging a bit)

@ 500yd, 70°C, 29.92 altimeter/barometer:
2146fps
767ft/lb energy
7.8 MOA drop
18.2" drift
 
I used the Berger because its actually a fuzz lower BC than the 75gr A-Max, which reportedly works to great effect out of a 9-twist 22-250 with its higher velocities relative to a 223...but I suppose the 77SMK works for comparison too.

You're certainly right that most -250s are 12 or 14 twist, but Savage offers a 9 twist in a model or two and of course the world is your oyster with the aftermarket.
 
The .223 at least in terms of a target rifle is good for a lot more range than most people realize. I've got a friend who shoots the 77 grainers out of a match AR out to 1000 yards and can basically shoot the same groups as I can with my .308 at that range. That being said you really have to read the wind well and the 77 grainers are too long to fit in the magazine so they have to be single loaded. You also need a relatively fast twist barrel
 
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