Zak Smith
Member
Both Sierra and Black Hills sell factory match ammunition in .223 using the 77gr SMK bullet that fit in and feed properly from an AR-15 magazine.
Long range limits of the .223 as varmint round?
- Thread starter saturno_v
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I'm a hunter, have been for over 30 years, and that's why I do not own a .223. The .223 shooting those heavy bullets is fine for F class and shooting paper and cardboard. For practical hunting I'll take a .22-250 shooting 55 gr bullets. That 75 gr bullet from a .223 isn't going to fragment when it hits an animal, miss and you'll probably have a ricochet using it for hunting. That's something I don't want in areas with farm animals and houses.
The 55 gr varmint bullet on the other hand was designed for varmint hunting. When it hits an animal the results are devastating. Put that same bullet in a .223 and you have a 200 yard hunting rifle at best.
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1stmarine
Member
Any of these bullets are extremely good and work just fine out the AR magazine:
77gr Sierras Match king
77gr Verger VLD
75gr Hornady HP Match
Hunting
70gr Barnes TSX (very effective including white tail)
75gr Swift Scirocco II (expands faster at lower speed)
The best loads are going to be compressed loads so start low and work your way up.
Consider some specialty mags that allow you to seat a little longer length than the average Colt magazine and make sure to allow 0.010 minimum before you hit the lands.
Personally I do not see a need for 80gr and specially for the 90gr bullets that require
very fast twist of rate and rendering the .223 to declining performance. I believe that at 77gr or 80gr we are done with the .223 but I can understand that some might like them but then single shot.
If you find a DPMS VLD centerstack magazine buy it as it will allow you to seat much further out, but again, make sure you know your barrel/chamber spec. Most likely will be a match spec specialty job.
Let me know if you need more info. I have ballistic charts out of 20" NM barrels for all the above.
Cheers,
E.
77gr Sierras Match king
77gr Verger VLD
75gr Hornady HP Match
Hunting
70gr Barnes TSX (very effective including white tail)
75gr Swift Scirocco II (expands faster at lower speed)
The best loads are going to be compressed loads so start low and work your way up.
Consider some specialty mags that allow you to seat a little longer length than the average Colt magazine and make sure to allow 0.010 minimum before you hit the lands.
Personally I do not see a need for 80gr and specially for the 90gr bullets that require
very fast twist of rate and rendering the .223 to declining performance. I believe that at 77gr or 80gr we are done with the .223 but I can understand that some might like them but then single shot.
If you find a DPMS VLD centerstack magazine buy it as it will allow you to seat much further out, but again, make sure you know your barrel/chamber spec. Most likely will be a match spec specialty job.
Let me know if you need more info. I have ballistic charts out of 20" NM barrels for all the above.
Cheers,
E.
well one thing that people tend to overlook is that bullet design has changed very much in the last few years. with bullets such as the tsx that open and perform with monotonous regularity. a bullet that may have not performed as well will always perform at its peak with some of these new bullet designs. My bro and I have regularly dispatched deer humanely and rapidly with this combo. most of which were drt.
jeff- barrel length has little to nothing to do with accuracy.. it has everything to do with velocity. if a gun is sighted for the load the accuracy will not change. possibly there may be a larger bullet drop at a given range with less velocity, but accuracy will not be affected.. my 20" ar will shoot one moa no problem at 350.. not sure where you got your stats, but even a few minutes on google you will find warranties on barrels that guarantee much better results than your claiming. the marines shoot 600 with irons, and they make"center mass" shots.. with a balistic plex/ bdc scope on a 308 1-2 moa is no big deal
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1stmarine
Member
Longer ranges can be done with the new bullets but you need a few more things. If you have the right system, training and experience and fill the conditions are right you can try the longer shot with confidence.
Very little and with carefully selected powder/bullet combination can be squeezed beyond the typical 20" National Match Barrel...
The decision is ultimately taken by the person pulling the trigger. Anyone can take the shot the question is who is going to hit it right.
Also there are other options that only require a new barrel like the 6x45 or any of the many alternative rounds and calibers that work really well in the AR-15.
223 Rem assortment left vs 6mmx45 right....
Very little and with carefully selected powder/bullet combination can be squeezed beyond the typical 20" National Match Barrel...
The decision is ultimately taken by the person pulling the trigger. Anyone can take the shot the question is who is going to hit it right.
Also there are other options that only require a new barrel like the 6x45 or any of the many alternative rounds and calibers that work really well in the AR-15.
223 Rem assortment left vs 6mmx45 right....
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1stmarine
Member
Hi suzukisam,
It has limitations but not as much as many people think. There might be some limitations to hunt large animals at moderate ranges. At 50 to 100 yards bears have been taken with the TSX bullets. Even at 500yrds a good load packs more energy than the typical 115gr SSA load in 6.8SPC and the reason is very simple... very good bullets these days.
Cheers,
E.
It has limitations but not as much as many people think. There might be some limitations to hunt large animals at moderate ranges. At 50 to 100 yards bears have been taken with the TSX bullets. Even at 500yrds a good load packs more energy than the typical 115gr SSA load in 6.8SPC and the reason is very simple... very good bullets these days.
Cheers,
E.
Marine- I agree.. it's funny how people think a bullet that expands to nearly a half inch moving over 3000 fps is uneffective, or even inhumane. Like I said I have other calibers I like more, but I still end whacking a few with my 223... the same discussion really gets me going when people say 6mm is a "varmint" round....oooookkkaaaaay maybe if your shooting 50 grainers
1stmarine
Member
suzukisam,
folks have taken down bear with both the .224 and .243 bullets. Too lite varmint rounds do not have the ballistics of the large grainers that require more twist and can be too much for the light bullets and tear the jackets apart. The decision starts with the bullet and the purpose, then you decide the system and barrel you need to deliver that bullet. Even in the same caliber there are huge
considerations to take into account.
There are many good rounds out there but not doubt that, like the .224 and the .308, the .243 department is full of extremely good choices. My believe is that the .243 caliber offers a perfect balance between weight, recoil, speed, ballistics and terminal effectiveness. With the right load in the right hands, will take down most of what we need.
The achievements and facts around these calibers and high BC bullets are irrefutable whether one likes them or not.
folks have taken down bear with both the .224 and .243 bullets. Too lite varmint rounds do not have the ballistics of the large grainers that require more twist and can be too much for the light bullets and tear the jackets apart. The decision starts with the bullet and the purpose, then you decide the system and barrel you need to deliver that bullet. Even in the same caliber there are huge
considerations to take into account.
There are many good rounds out there but not doubt that, like the .224 and the .308, the .243 department is full of extremely good choices. My believe is that the .243 caliber offers a perfect balance between weight, recoil, speed, ballistics and terminal effectiveness. With the right load in the right hands, will take down most of what we need.
The achievements and facts around these calibers and high BC bullets are irrefutable whether one likes them or not.
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Marine- I think we are on the same page...my buddies all call me the "6mm snob" cause they say I'm always talking about how great .243 and my 6.5 swede are... but to stay on topic, I really think that with the nasty wound channel in deer that I have seen I would challenge anyone who dislikes the 223, or thinks it's sub standard for hunting to load up some 70gr tsx and do some testing of your own...they are wicked. IMO they change the game by giving bullets the ability to open the same way everytime and consistently double their size. Plus being solid copper they retain 95% or more of their weight so they tunnel through..
1stmarine
Member
Feeling attached to the 6 and 6.5mm is for a good reason.
Among other reasons I am building the 6mmx45 upper because for an inexplicable reason in some places the .224 caliber is not legal for white tail. Anyway it is fun to do and expect close to a 30% increase in terminal effectiveness. I am working in a custom/home made VLD mag centerstack design.
To this date nothing has escaped the TSX in any of the calibers obviously including the .308.
From the 70gr in .224 to the 180gr in .308 the result is the same, a consistent wound channel and the animal collapses right there. Never found one inside but it is clear it leaves most of the energy in the animal.
I have not tried the new TTSX that have even better BCs, close to match bullets but I cannot wait to try them this winter.
I am also going to try some nosler e-tip. Check them out, they reload very well and BC is also very high.
Cheers,
E.
Among other reasons I am building the 6mmx45 upper because for an inexplicable reason in some places the .224 caliber is not legal for white tail. Anyway it is fun to do and expect close to a 30% increase in terminal effectiveness. I am working in a custom/home made VLD mag centerstack design.
To this date nothing has escaped the TSX in any of the calibers obviously including the .308.
From the 70gr in .224 to the 180gr in .308 the result is the same, a consistent wound channel and the animal collapses right there. Never found one inside but it is clear it leaves most of the energy in the animal.
I have not tried the new TTSX that have even better BCs, close to match bullets but I cannot wait to try them this winter.
I am also going to try some nosler e-tip. Check them out, they reload very well and BC is also very high.
Cheers,
E.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
1stmarine, the reason that the small calibers aren't legal is because, mostly, those who write the rules aren't aware of modern bullet desgin. However, odds are that a lot of guys who would hunt deer with 22-caliber aren't up to date, either. Staying current is a bit of a problem, as has been shown in earlier posts here in this thread. Lordy, I stay behind, myownself. 
That said, I doubt that I would take an angling shot on a large deer with any .22 centerfire. Neck or cross-body heart shot and generally smaller deer? Sure.
I've had a lot of fun shooting prairie dogs with my .223, finding that clean kills were easy to 300 yards. Beyond that, wind drift was the main problem. With lasers, figuring hold-over is easy.
That said, I doubt that I would take an angling shot on a large deer with any .22 centerfire. Neck or cross-body heart shot and generally smaller deer? Sure.
I've had a lot of fun shooting prairie dogs with my .223, finding that clean kills were easy to 300 yards. Beyond that, wind drift was the main problem. With lasers, figuring hold-over is easy.
1stmarine
Member
Art,
Wise words. No doubt there are a lot of myths around the .223 capabilities or, I should say, the lack of them. This comes from the multiple reports from previous conflicts including somalia about of the lack of terminal effectiveness of the 5.56 round. I was discussing the other day with a a friend that just came back from Afganistan about how the new penetrator rounds performed. He said in some instances penetration was far superior to anything seen before.
We also have a sniper round MK262 with 77gr of match performance.
I am not going to get into this deeply but there has been a lot of research and development to make sure that, all the obvious gaps the 5.56 round had in the past, were nicely filled one at the time. I think that the advances in the 5.56 military rounds have been greatly influenced by the growth and experiences acquired from the civilian markets over the years.
The original purpose of the .223 was very clear. The limitations today far less since its inception but still folks need to use common sense and understanding those limitations. The newer bullets buck the wind much better but still they are .224 bullets so I would not suggest taking on a bear or a big mule at 300yards with 20mph cross winds. White tails are perfectly ok for this round regardless of what some might think. Coyotes are also ok even at long distances just be wise depending on barometrics and wind situation before you pull the trigger.
At 50-120yards TSX shoots are extremely deadly whatever the animal. Think of it like a drill with 4 sharp razors on the tip running and turning all across the animal. Penetration is superb with instant shock all the time. Same as with the other calibers. My preferred hunting load is a hot load that took me a while to develop just like any good match load.
What we all really have going for us is the innate accuracy of the .223 in the AR match barrels and systems available today that will allow shot placements exactly where we want them. Needless to say, and in line with what you said, even with the best AR, scope and round you can find, extensive training and practice must be there, and this is the most delicate part of the whole requirement. You got to know your bullets and what you are doing.
In the end everything starts and ends with the bullet, hopefully a good one. The rest it is just the means to deliver that bullet accurately.
Cheers,
E.
Wise words. No doubt there are a lot of myths around the .223 capabilities or, I should say, the lack of them. This comes from the multiple reports from previous conflicts including somalia about of the lack of terminal effectiveness of the 5.56 round. I was discussing the other day with a a friend that just came back from Afganistan about how the new penetrator rounds performed. He said in some instances penetration was far superior to anything seen before.
We also have a sniper round MK262 with 77gr of match performance.
I am not going to get into this deeply but there has been a lot of research and development to make sure that, all the obvious gaps the 5.56 round had in the past, were nicely filled one at the time. I think that the advances in the 5.56 military rounds have been greatly influenced by the growth and experiences acquired from the civilian markets over the years.
The original purpose of the .223 was very clear. The limitations today far less since its inception but still folks need to use common sense and understanding those limitations. The newer bullets buck the wind much better but still they are .224 bullets so I would not suggest taking on a bear or a big mule at 300yards with 20mph cross winds. White tails are perfectly ok for this round regardless of what some might think. Coyotes are also ok even at long distances just be wise depending on barometrics and wind situation before you pull the trigger.
At 50-120yards TSX shoots are extremely deadly whatever the animal. Think of it like a drill with 4 sharp razors on the tip running and turning all across the animal. Penetration is superb with instant shock all the time. Same as with the other calibers. My preferred hunting load is a hot load that took me a while to develop just like any good match load.
What we all really have going for us is the innate accuracy of the .223 in the AR match barrels and systems available today that will allow shot placements exactly where we want them. Needless to say, and in line with what you said, even with the best AR, scope and round you can find, extensive training and practice must be there, and this is the most delicate part of the whole requirement. You got to know your bullets and what you are doing.
In the end everything starts and ends with the bullet, hopefully a good one. The rest it is just the means to deliver that bullet accurately.
Cheers,
E.
1stmarine
Member
A picture of my favorite NM system....
1stmarine
Member
Thanks mang.
AR's are good as they are always accurate and easy to toy with.
I am going to see if I have some time to work on the 6mmx45 upper tonight.
I am also trying to convert a promag AR magazine to single stack to take a 2.46" COAL.
Following sscoyote steps with this hard to find magazines...
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/long-range-coyotes-scope-1.php
AR's are good as they are always accurate and easy to toy with.
I am going to see if I have some time to work on the 6mmx45 upper tonight.
I am also trying to convert a promag AR magazine to single stack to take a 2.46" COAL.
Following sscoyote steps with this hard to find magazines...
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/long-range-coyotes-scope-1.php
burninfuel
Member
Ihave several AR's, bolt guns in 223. range shots are out to 300yds and back slope to 408 yds.
I first shot 55 g FMJ with thr HBAR, 1-7 twist groups to 1 - 1.5 " Zero'd at 200, so 100yds was about 1/2" high, 300 yds were aprox. 2" low and at 408 yds were about 6" low.
Shooting 1/4" steel discs of 8" dia. round penetraited it every time except when hit extreame right of left, disc is mounted to 1/2 emt conduit with a flag in the ground so it won't rotate.
I know know that 1-7 twist is for 62g bullets and heaverier, the bolt gun uses 1-12 twist and like 40 to 50 g bullets.
My 24" heavy shaw barreled , 1-8 twist I shoot 68g hornady BC is 400 ?? 3050 fps and can drill 1/4" plate at 408 everytime. Bench rest in a shooting machine.
the range is slightly up hill and elevation is 5000'
I first shot 55 g FMJ with thr HBAR, 1-7 twist groups to 1 - 1.5 " Zero'd at 200, so 100yds was about 1/2" high, 300 yds were aprox. 2" low and at 408 yds were about 6" low.
Shooting 1/4" steel discs of 8" dia. round penetraited it every time except when hit extreame right of left, disc is mounted to 1/2 emt conduit with a flag in the ground so it won't rotate.
I know know that 1-7 twist is for 62g bullets and heaverier, the bolt gun uses 1-12 twist and like 40 to 50 g bullets.
My 24" heavy shaw barreled , 1-8 twist I shoot 68g hornady BC is 400 ?? 3050 fps and can drill 1/4" plate at 408 everytime. Bench rest in a shooting machine.
the range is slightly up hill and elevation is 5000'
1stmarine
Member
Suzukisam,
I posted the first day out with the 6mm barrel here....
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7219871&postcount=104
The long range test will come soon. I am working on the loads now.
Cheers,
E.
I posted the first day out with the 6mm barrel here....
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7219871&postcount=104
The long range test will come soon. I am working on the loads now.
Cheers,
E.
1stmarine
Member
Thanks mang!
it is not broken in yet and showing tight groups in the quarter of an inch department. So far it looks that the Lothar Walter barrel all fresh cut was worth every single penny I paid for it.
That's why I want to build the VLD mag. similar to what sscoyote presented here. I cannot wait to put some high BC bullets downrange. As always I will go slowly with the loads and bring the chrono next day out.
I know I am not going to brake any record but at least the accuracy expectations everyone talks about are showing some potential.
No wonder why this round won so many matches before the BR got established.
I will post more of my findings. I am also looking at the potential at 400-500 yards.
Cheers,
E.
it is not broken in yet and showing tight groups in the quarter of an inch department. So far it looks that the Lothar Walter barrel all fresh cut was worth every single penny I paid for it.
That's why I want to build the VLD mag. similar to what sscoyote presented here. I cannot wait to put some high BC bullets downrange. As always I will go slowly with the loads and bring the chrono next day out.
I know I am not going to brake any record but at least the accuracy expectations everyone talks about are showing some potential.
No wonder why this round won so many matches before the BR got established.
I will post more of my findings. I am also looking at the potential at 400-500 yards.
Cheers,
E.
I've heard some great things about lothar barrels.. d9 where I get a lot of stuff has been using them.. I'm l;ooking forward to seeing your results.. I took the old 243 out a couple weeks ago, but about the best I could do at 200 was moa.. I shot one half moa with a nasty flyer, which turned a sweet group into a 3 moa.. first time out this year and I couldn't get my breathing and trigger control down.. next time will be better I hope
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