Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)

[Varminterror]

Found it. I'm not sure what he was trying to do with that sling setup.

Lol, man, I know what he was TRYING to do, but he's not doing it well. The SAP sling, which he has, is meant to be cuff-able, so he's trying to cuff, but it's way too low on his arm, and a LOT of his standing position there is broken down trying to wrap down to the rifle.

That hurts my back to look at it.

 

[Walkalong]

Just like when guys try to run a bipod and bag on tire stages instead of just running a front bag and totally smoke themselves.

........guilty as charged, don't do that anymore........

 

[Walkalong]

I know what he was TRYING to do

I did what I learned as a kid, don't know if it is a way that is taught or not, never took a class in anything about shooting. It works though. Honestly I can't remember if I was shown how to, or what, been so long ago.

 

[taliv]

But that's not what the data is describing as happening

I don’t think the data shows that at all.

It doesn’t say one guy missed a gust of wind and all that.

Mid pack guys are mostly just inconsistent. They have flashes of brilliance where they do everything right and clean stages and they have trainwrecks and bomb stages.

Sometimes he’s going to hit that little target and sometimes he’s going to miss it. If he was good enough to hit the second smallest one, I’m not going to say he’s a bad shooter and a gust of wind just blew his bullet into the smallest target to catapult him up in the standings.

PRS has never been a real world test to me,

It’s not for a lot of people. If it’s just golf for you that’s fine too. It was practical for me, and practical when I started.

 

[Walkalong]

It has increased my skills as a shooter, no doubt, but no one in the real world is going to be timed on shooting a bad guy or prey, nor are they going to pick weird positions to shoot from when others are available.

 

[taliv]

sure. It’s obviously a simulation. It’s not worth the effort to physically replicate a scenario where the best position is weird. It’s much easier to say, shoot off this x

 

[JFrank]

Perhaps PRS should develop a handicap system to give every one a fair chance.

 

[Varminterror]

I don’t think the data shows that at all.

Our Regional Director cataloged results from stages from 3 years of matches when we voted for the rule change.

That’s what the data showed.

 

[Varminterror]

Perhaps PRS should develop a handicap system to give every one a fair chance.

There is a class system. It’s largely a joke, because there simply aren’t enough of us, and the classification definitions are largely meaningless. Someday, that could change, today, it’s meaningless.

And not many folks really care about being the fastest slow kid. There are Senior, Junior, Lady, Mil/LEO, Open, Tac, Gas, and Production divisions, and Amateur, Marksman, Semi-Pro, and Pro classifications. But we all shoot the same course of fire, and the winner of the open is the winner…

Production class has kinda broken this mold, because “production class rifles” have been released by custom gun builders which are nothing more than high volume custom rifles, so Production Class guys are occasionally winning the Open too, but this meme has largely been meaningful for all PRS divisions for as long as I have been shooting:

 

[JFrank]

I was thinking along the lines of a golf handicap, but basically no one cares.
That’s kinda like BR .. you get better or get smoked.

 

[Walkalong]

you get better or get smoked.

Yep.

 

[OS/N]

I may jump into PRS this season. Has been on my bucket list for a while and I'm not getting any younger.

About finished with the rifle. Just have to install the bottom metal and pick a scope.

I do my own smithing so just built on a mid 90s 700 SA rifle I already had and bought new in 97. Was a 22-250 and hadn't been fired more than a couple hundred times - looked new.

Be running a 308 w/ 26" #7 shilen ss match barrel on a trued and squared action, reamed w/ PTG min sammi chamber pull through (brass looks great and firing pin is dead center on the palmar sp hole), original tuned trigger, and likely just the OEM laminate varmint stock modified to my needs w/ pillar and action glass bed. Been testing w/o the stock bedded and getting better than 1/2 moa with hunting bullet handloads so think its gonna be a shooter. Will glass in when I put the bottom metal in. Bottom metal is PTG/MDT M5 DBM Badger for AICS SSSF mags.

Haven't bought a scope yet but will likely do a 5HD with MOA retical. A 4HD may even work better for me as 18+/- power or less is all I will likely ever need or get any use from on a PRS drill. I've been looking at the Leica PRS 5–30 x 56 also but the retical I'd like is in mils and I'm used to doping in MOA so I likely will stay clear. Ziess may be an option also but don't know if the new nipon make moves me. I do not care for lights or batteries so that will be a deciding factor.

You guys have any nonilluminated suggestions? I'm leaning towards the 4 HD.

For now I have been testing with an older target scope but it is a fine duplex and would take to long to adjust and etc... Be much quicker to tree, dial 10 and tree @ 800, and then dial 20 and tree on the 1k + targets (may not loose my place as bad either).

Oh yeah - Atlantic Coast Regional, F Open, Senior.

 

[Walkalong]

People really like the 5HD Leupolds. If you do MOA because that's what you are used to it will work fine, but most folks will be "speaking in mils",
so it's like talking another language. Some people do it though.

The Zeiss S3 is a lot of scope for the money IMHO. I have one on my .22 LR, and an S5 on a Dasher. I rarely go over 20X.

It's a lot of fun, even if it's tough for us older guys to keep up physically. Just do it, and have fun.

 

[Nature Boy]

Others with more experience will weigh in here but I think you’ll hate running an MOA scope. MIL would be a better tool for adjusting to the variable distances you’ll be shooting.

A .308 will also be an outlier compared to the sea of 6BR variants you’ll be shooting against

 

[Varminterror]

@OS/N - 308win, assuming your velocity remains low enough, will allow you to shoot Tactical Class, reserved only for 223/5.56 and 308win. It'll be much harder, and Tac class shooters are significantly handicapped, so they're never competitive, but like the photo I posted above, some guys are into getting a trophy for coming in at the bottom 1/3 of the overall, but first in their handicap division (tac and gas gun).

Personally, I STRONGLY recommend adoption of mrad scopes for PRS use - I induct a lot of new shooters into the PRS every season, and speaking the native language, saving yourself extra revs and extra clicks, and dealing with smaller numbers in our heads on the clock is just easier - PLUS, new shooters are allowed coaching on the clock, and the corrections you will receive will be in mrads. It's not a complicated switch, and it IS smaller numbers and less spinning to dial for MRAD than for MOA, so life gets easier when you convert.

Reviewing your build plan, the only comment I can make is that I don't expect the weight will be heavy enough (balance MIGHT be ok, however?) to really suit the game. A 308win should weigh somewhere 25-28lbs for PRS use, and needs to balance 4-5" in front of the front action screw. You'll also likely find that you will want some flavor of ARCA rail running on the bottom of the forend to allow adaptability of your bipod mount as well as for occasional tripod use.

Reticle illumination CAN be important for certain matches - there do exist multiple night matches which use illuminated targets, and shooters need illuminated reticles for eye position reference behind the scope. Usually guys can swap around and borrow an illuminated scope if they need it for those matches, but since you're buying anyway, having the illumination might make sense.

 

[OS/N]

@Walkalong - the built in blink for level horizon does sound nice on the 5HD and having the bore under the sight at long range in all positions would be a major plus (need to double check - that may just be on the 6HD). Night shoots may be better with some light also especially if windage takes your center off a lit background. There's a little voice in the back of my head from days gone by that keeps saying "keep it simple and if your battery dies so do you". I was thinking night shoots were only done in the national division but I may be wrong. May look a little more into mrad and mil - I've been using MOA so long I already have 308 ballistics printed in my head and know what and how to do without thinking about the math. Big question is if old shaky can still send em like he could 40 yrs ago. Like my old daddy used to tell me "shoot where you look not where you shot".

@Varminterror - thanks for the input. The #7 is alot of barrel. It's front heavy now and very heavy - I'll weigh after the bottom metal and glass go in, the scope, and check piece are in place. 20 to 22 lbs is about where it will be with a 10rnd mag in it. If I have to go to a chassis it will be to reduce weight not add it. I'll be going with 165/168 high BC bullets at 2650 to 2750 FPS - that's where the barrel shoots best, will last a long time, and will keep me inside the operating range of most LR scopes out to 1k +/- meters/yards anyway. Need to stay under 3200 and be .308 so no problems there with the 308Win. Only thing on the calendar for Atlantic Coast Div in 25 now is 3 events at Quanico which requires 308 bullets and is an 800 meter range. If they don't do pig creek and SC this time I may not do it anyway - may just bounce around and shoot where I want. I'll email the PRS org and see whats cooking for 25 in my area. My old bones cant take the winmag pounding anymore and barrels get expensive.

@Nature Boy - Thanks With the newer higher BC bullets the 308W is good out to 1200 as long as I can keep it in the scope range. Over 1k will need a 20MOA rail or base but std should do fine up to 1k. I may do a 10 or 20 rail anyway just to keep the scope in the sweet spot - can loose some windage adjustment when you get near the end of vertical range. With windage tree for wind and my rig shooting true to center of scope adjustment already, I should only need the 8+/- moa correction for right hand twist at longer ranges anyway so it may be mute.

 

[Varminterror]

The #7 is alot of barrel.

Shilen lists 3 different #7’s, but the HV version nearly matches the MTU contour, a little lighter than the Proof Competition Contour - these two are generally now the lighter end contour, with many folks using straight 1.25’s. Almost all of us are adding weight to our stocks to get weight and balance right, even with these big barrels.

Shoot me a PM if you like regarding schedule. I help coordinate shooters all over the country with local match directors and experienced shooters. The Carolinas have been a problem for years - we didn’t have ANY matches out there for a long, long time, so even having 3 on the calendar is a major improvement.

With windage tree for wind and my rig shooting true to center of scope adjustment already, I should only need the 8+/- moa correction for right hand twist at longer ranges anyway so it may be mute.

You won’t get the winds out East which we experience in the West, but I’ve dialed more than 35moa of wind at matches in the last 8 seasons multiple times with 6 creed and 6 Dasher. Our prevailing windspeed during the match season is more than 8moa at 1,000, every day of the week.

 

[Walkalong]

Personally, I STRONGLY recommend adoption of mrad scopes for PRS use - I induct a lot of new shooters into the PRS every season, and speaking the native language, saving yourself extra revs and extra clicks, and dealing with smaller numbers in our heads on the clock is just easier - PLUS, new shooters are allowed coaching on the clock, and the corrections you will receive will be in mrads. It's not a complicated switch, and it IS smaller numbers and less spinning to dial for MRAD than for MOA, so life gets easier when you convert.

Yep, these are the reasons I went mrad even though I had always thought in MOA, there was a short learning curve, but it's not bad, and it does make it easier for the reasons VT laid out.

 

[Nature Boy]

308win, assuming your velocity remains low enough, will allow you to shoot Tactical Class, reserved only for 223/5.56 and 308win.

Question for you. If I can get a 90VLD close to matching the BC of a 185 Juggernaut (which it does), wouldn’t that be head and shoulders better in this class than the .308? The only advantage I could see with the .308 would be spotting your splash. Other than that it’s all downside.

And just for the record, I’m a chapter president in the .308 fan club

 

[OS/N]

Question for you. If I can get a 90VLD close to matching the BC of a 185 Juggernaut (which it does), wouldn’t that be head and shoulders better in this class than the .308? The only advantage I could see with the .308 would be spotting your splash. Other than that it’s all downside.

And just for the record, I’m a chapter president in the .308 fan club

BC is BC I suppose. I have used 223, 22-250, 243, 270, a couple 7s, and different 30s over the years. 2800 fps has always seemed to be a magic number for me in all. A .5 BC in any should be affected by wind the same at that same speed but the heavier bullets have always seemed to track better for me. The newer .6 pills would likely rule in either case.

I settled on the 308W for this build for a few reasons and will stick with that choice. Some are for practical reasons like availibilty and cost; others are for its just what I wanted to do. There will always be a slicker, better, and newer tech out there - at this point in my life I just want to enjoy myself. I've rabbit trailed and raced about all I want to. My choice will be better than I am so if it was ten times better it likely wouldn't change the outcome - for benchrest yes but not for PRS.

In any case, all the best to you. For the record I came very close to going 243 (again this time) but I wanted to shoot the mil/tac ranges so went 308. I already have a 223 so didn't need to build another one plus the rifle I rebuilt already had a 308 class bolt face and short action. I think it's capable and will be good to go.

 

[Varminterror]

Question for you. If I can get a 90VLD close to matching the BC of a 185 Juggernaut (which it does), wouldn’t that be head and shoulders better in this class than the .308? The only advantage I could see with the .308 would be spotting your splash. Other than that it’s all downside.

And just for the record, I’m a chapter president in the .308 fan club

But… The PRS rulebook restricts 223 within Tac Division to 77grn and lighter projectiles, at 3000fps and slower.

Otherwise, I’d (personally) absolutely agree - I’d much rather shoot a 223 than a 308 in Tac class. Robert Brantley, the Kitten King of 2 Miles, converted to 308win for Tac after he left Production division, and he does well, but other than Rob, most of the guys which consistently do well in Tac are shooting 223’s.

The average distance, nationwide, for PRS matches is only 650-750yrds, so the 223’s lighter recoil makes up a lot of ground for positional stages compared to the lesser wind drift of the 30-ate-too-much… but yeah, the Top Tac winner at any given match tends to be mid-pack, at best, so it’s mostly guys just having fun and ensuring they make the Finale each year.

 

[Nature Boy]

But… The PRS rulebook restricts 223 within Tac Division to 77grn and lighter projectiles, at 3000fps and slower.

Otherwise, I’d (personally) absolutely agree - I’d much rather shoot a 223 than a 308 in Tac class. Robert Brantley, the Kitten King of 2 Miles, converted to 308win for Tac after he left Production division, and he does well, but other than Rob, most of the guys which consistently do well in Tac are shooting 223’s.

The average distance, nationwide, for PRS matches is only 650-750yrds, so the 223’s lighter recoil makes up a lot of ground for positional stages compared to the lesser wind drift of the 30-ate-too-much… but yeah, the Top Tac winner at any given match tends to be mid-pack, at best, so it’s mostly guys just having fun and ensuring they make the Finale each year.

Even with the 77gn limit on .223, I would still probably take it over the .308. Not sure what the .308 guys are generally shooting in PRS but if it’s a 185 class bullet it’s going to thump you pretty good. I can see that adding difficulty to your ability to get back on target quickly in a timed, positional shooting event. If they’re stepping down to something like a 155gn Full Bore for better recoil management then you’re back to ballistic parity with the 77gn OTM

 

[Varminterror]

Not sure what the .308 guys are generally shooting in PRS

Tac Class limits the 308's to 175/178 class bullets - but still, yeah, it's a lot of recoil. Like I mentioned, Rob is the only guy I know who has consistently come back to 308 for Production Class (and he's a truly exceptional shooter), with most of the die-hard Tac Class guys I know all shooting 223. It's just the better choice for the division.

I just can't bring myself to shoot Tac Class. Although, I'll admit, I'm likely going to shoot a few matches in Gas Gun Division this season, knowing whole-heartedly that Tac Class is a MUCH better choice than Gas Gun. I AM playing with the idea of doing some other class shooting this season, a lot of which centers around a final decision on what I want to do with my Seekins Havak action: 1) putting a light 6.5mm barrel on my Seekins and shooting it in the new Sportsman Division which ONLY allows 6.5 creedmoor, and limits rifle weight to 13lbs, 2) Putting a 223 barrel on it and sticking it in my MPA BA chassis and shooting Tac Class, 3) getting a new barrel from Glen and taking it back to Production Class, 4) Putting a 300 WSM barrel out front (or 7-6.5PRC) and using it for Tactical Division at ELR matches, or 5) sending it down the river in a leaky canoe... I guess I feel like I just haven't achieved the performance in Open division that I should have, so I don't really feel like I should distract myself and jump into a significantly handicapped class...

But... I'm almost tempted to buy a pallet of factory ammo with 77SMK's or 73 ELD's and just do MORE shooting with less reloading burden and shoot Tac class with a 223rem, and that Seekins could make a low cost, easily adapted option.

 

[OS/N]

Even with the 77gn limit on .223, I would still probably take it over the .308. Not sure what the .308 guys are generally shooting in PRS but if it’s a 185 class bullet it’s going to thump you pretty good. I can see that adding difficulty to your ability to get back on target quickly in a timed, positional shooting event. If they’re stepping down to something like a 155gn Full Bore for better recoil management then you’re back to ballistic parity with the 77gn OTM

I've shot plenty 77s and they do fight cross wind better than 69s - even better than the newer tipped ones with the better bcs. There is still a trade off for energy loss when the powder charge limits of the case prevents a heavier bullet from having as much energy as the lighter. More energy fights wind better but the lower BC causes it to fall off faster at some point. Where those two cross paths would be the point of interest.

The palmar 155 is for palmar as that restricks bullet weight to 155. Later versions have the BC right at .5 which is a little better than the older 168 SMK. The new 168s in tipped form are about .54 which puts them up near the 185 at .555 There is still the factor that most will want to shoot what prints best or is acceptable. If your gun shoots 1moa with 185s and 1/2 with 168s thats 5" difference at 1k so the BC benifit doesn't help you even if your shooting in a vaccum. The newer 168s and the 185s both are supersonic past 1k. To be honest I haven't tested the 185s so they may do fine or better - I'm getting all I need from 165 & 168s so didn't think giving up velocity would help me any.

I have never noticed a big enough difference in recoil when changing bullet weights when loading to the same accuracy level in the same chambering to be noticable unless loading light for bore bullets. When loadimg heavy for bore pressure issues start becoming an issue when trying to tighten groups - for me anyway.

 

[Varminterror]

When loadimg heavy for bore pressure issues start becoming an issue when trying to tighten groups

Why would that happen?

Just run a lower node, live happy.