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Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Walkalong, Dec 21, 2018.

  1. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Aren't we all? Well, most of us.

    My thinking is production class may be a better spot for a beginner like me. But if we all get bunched in due to numbers it is a non issue, plus they all might still kick my butt in production class anyway.

    But yea, price is an issue not just for production class reasons. It is what it is. I would love the rifle I linked to earlier (Over 4K), but that would be a huge investment for me and would be wasted if I did not like PRS and did not continue to shoot it. I imagine neither the Seekins or John Hancock rifles would not limit me, and that I would be the limiting factor, at least at first, if not for some time. Financially I can handle a 2K rifle a lot easier than a 4K rifle, especially since an optic must be added.

    Great stuff so far, and I really appreciate it. Looking forward to more feedback. :)
     
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  2. z7

    z7 Member

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  3. Bayourambler

    Bayourambler Member

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    Walkalong, aren’t you a Sightron fan? Me and my shooting buddies are hooked on the Siii. I haven’t had the luxury of using $3k scopes , but I have used Nightforce scopes and can honestly say the Siii is just as good. As far as tracking goes the Sightron’s I’ve worked with are EXACT on the numbers. I’ve put grids on cardboard at all different ranges and can tell you they can’t get any closer.
     
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  4. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Either of them would take you as far as your skills ever could take you. After adding a $30 cheekpiece from Victor Company, a take-off Jewel HVR, and a $100 Arcalock rail from Area419 (the latter which I would have added to most any stock), and the lightweight fluted sporter contour barrel - which is not used in the Bravo version - there’s nothing I would change now to improve my Havak for PRS gaming. It’s just a little light for settling in on the barricade with the HEAVILY fluted Magnum sporter barrel, and it does get super hot almost immediately. It’s at the doctor getting barrel enhancement surgery to swap over to a heavy palma barrel, and I’ll be happy to keep using it next season at club matches.

    If I miss with my Havak, it’s not because the rifle isn’t as capable as the other guys’ Defiance or Impact, it’s because I wasn’t.

    Neither of these are really factory/production rifles. They’re custom rifles built without a customer order, and stuck on a shelf. Ditch the 510 for a Jewel or TriggerTech, stick an ARCA rail on that Bravo, and the Havak will let you run as sharp as you’re able, at any level. I strongly considered another one for my new rifle, but Defiance’s sale at NRAAM was too good to pass up.
     
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  5. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, my FN-SPR has an SIII on it and I like it a lot, bought it on a recommendation from couple of shooters here.. I wouldn't call the glass awesome, but it is very good for sure.
     
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  6. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    This Sightron 4.5-24x56 SV 34MM is the closest thing I see to a FFP, Milrad xmas tree reticle scope. No zero stop. At over 2K it better be good glass, and no zero stop might hurt it in that price range. Dunno for sure, but it seems like from what I have read zero stop is a useful/sought after feature.
     
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  7. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Sounds good to me.
     
  8. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    This keeps popping up everywhere I read, and so it's the game plan. My Sightron on my .308 is Mil/Mil, just not FFP, so I ave to use 24X, or 12X and double everything. Not difficult at close (Under 600) range.
     
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  9. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    So I could order it and put it on myself, assuming I had the correct action wrench, and a barrel vise, like I could do with my Benchrest rifle?
    Barrel Vise & Action Wrench Pic 1.JPG
     
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  10. z7

    z7 Member

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    @Walkalong

    If you are serious about the production class, there are things you cannot change with the rifle:

    You can’t change the barrel, (manufacturer must change when it is shot out)
    You can’t change the trigger
    You can’t change the stock
    Just know that before you decide to buy stuff to me the production class, you may say “screw it” and make a few different choices so your rifle can fit your needs as you develope the 6mm creedmore barrels are lasting less thank 2k shots for many people


    Some companies like pva will take the specs of your action when they fit the barrel and they can spin up a replacement without the action in hand - bolt guns are going the same way ar15’s did with the LEGO builds. The Seekins rifles are supposed to be great, I don’t think you could go wrong with them either, I do think the Seekins are lighter where the JH from PVA will be heavier, which is an advantage. Folks are building 25lb 6mm dashers with big muzzle breaks for “barricade benchrest” aka PRS
     
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  11. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Good points.
     
  12. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    You can replace a barrel with a factory provided, drop in barrel. Can’t have someone custom headspace and thread, but the drop in barrels for Savage, RPR, Seekins don’t require any smithing. Screw off the old one, screw on the new one - whether you do it or the factory does it, it’s nothing more than a lightbulb. Guys have been getting RPR barrels without Ruger doing the install for as long as there have been RPR’s.

    Look at the cartridges used this season and the trend over the last few seasons, then tell me anyone thinks a 6 creed is a bad idea for PRS. I’d love to get 2,000 from a 6 creed, but living with 1500rnds or less really isn’t a challenge.
     
  13. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Yup. Crank off, crank on. Impact, Bighorn, and Seekins all offer this.
     
  14. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    How many rounds are you shooting in an average PRS match?
     
  15. z7

    z7 Member

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    Between 50 and 100 for a club match, a 2 day match seems to call for 200-250 rds
    It is variable depending on the match director/ course of fire and shooter speed
     
  16. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    So about the same for an average F Class match. I’m trying to gauge the amount of time investment required to prepare for a match.
     
  17. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    I'll take George Gardner's word for his business name over Chris Kyle's. GAP's only a few hours from me, and I travel through KC all of the time for work. Between GAP, Manners, and Bushnell, that area is pretty loaded for good things happening in the precision rifle world.
     
  18. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    At this point I am leaning heavily towards a Seekins Havak rifle. Price is good, definitely a cut above the 1K rage rifles I listed in the opening post and can be upgraded as far as the trigger goes, new barrels would be easier, and different barrels/calibers could be added down the road if I stick with it. Won't hold a newbie back, won't be embarrassing to show up with, and less embarrassing to get whipped with than a 4K rifle. And much easier on the budget. That's important.

    What scope is wide open, although I won't be ponying up for a scope in the 3K+ range. 2K+ is doubtful as well. It would have to be a great deal on a new or used one. Doubtful though.

    I like (On screen and across the neighborhood anyway) the G3 reticle on the Bushnell DMR II 3.5-21x50. As I believe I posted, I have already purchased a new but discontinued 30mm Bushnell DMR G2 6-24x50 ($562.87) and it could be used in a pinch, although I would like to put it on my FN-SPR .308 as well. It would be used for much less demanding purposes there.

    Bushnell has an E-DMR 3.4-21x50 at $1999.99 instead of $1600 for the DMR II, is the glass upgrade worth it?

    Then of course they bump up to the 4.5-30x50 at $2300. In that price range the Razor AMG has a useful looking reticle. I have a couple of Vipers which are not impressive, and I had (Gave it to my nephew) a Viper "XYZ" mil/mil scope that was decent, so I hope the Razor line is more impressive.

    The Horus type reticle looks more versatile, and I guess the knock for some folks is they are "too busy"?

    The Athlon has a very usable looking reticle similar to the G2/G3 of the Bushnell. Priced well.

    I am leaning heavily towards something in the under 2K range where the Athlon and Bushnell look good. Not so much for production class anymore as just simply the budget.

    Thanks everyone, the feedback has been awesome and I am most grateful. :)
     
  19. Gtscotty

    Gtscotty Member

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    If you're looking to keep the scope at $2k or less, you still have lots of options new and especially used.

    I've seen for $2k or a little less new:

    Vortex Razor HD AMG 6-24x50
    Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 4.5-27x56
    Leupold Mk5 5-25x56 CCH
    Bushnell XRS II 4.5-30x50

    In the $1,100 - $1,500 range new, you can find

    Athlon Cronus BTR 4.5-29x56
    Bushnell DMR II 3.5-21x50
    Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50

    There's also a Burris XTR III coming out this year with a new Christmas tree reticle that should land in the <$1,500 street price realm. No telling how it will compare to the above at this point, but the few hands on reviews trickling out suggest that the glass is a decent step up over the XTR II.

    Calling companies like Liberty Optics and CameralandNY (among others) and making a login at Gunprodeals.com can really open the door to some good deals.

    After doing a similar search this summer, I wound up with the Vortex AMG and have been really happy with it.

    I do prefer reticles like the Vortex EBR-2c/EBR-7b, Leupold CCH and Athlon APRS that are more or less in the middle: more features than something like a Bushnell G3, but less clutter than an H59. I'm sure everyone has their own preference in reticles though.

    For used options, take a look at the classifieds section at Sniper's Hide, most of these makers offer excellent transferrable warranties (perhaps less so for the European companies), so the risk of buying used is much reduced.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
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  20. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    The DMR Pro is better glass than the DMR II, and I might say I wish my DMR II was a DMR II-i so I could use it for night matches too, instead of swapping scopes for illuminated reticles. I'm very happy with my DMR II though, it's very clear out to 1400, and I pick up mirage a lot of other guys can't see. I don't feel disadvantaged at all using it - but if I were buying again, I'd spend a little more and get a Pro or at least the DMR II-i.

    The Horus reticle might be a little busy for the game. Like we've said already - you're going to dial most of your shooting, so you won't be playing around down in the matrix anyway. The G3 Christmas tree is a nice compromise, it's there if you need it, but you don't notice it much if you don't. If your club has a huge infrastructure to afford movers and has a lot of wind, MAYBE I'd justify a Horus, but that's usually the exception, not the rule, and the ones I have seen have been really generous, since most guys don't shoot them too often. MD's aren't out to screw guys with super difficult objectives, they're trying to make a competitive match which doesn't offer any

    You can usually count on about 70-120 per day.

    A bit more expansion on Match Day expectations: Plan for 7-12 stages, running 60-120 rounds. Most club matches I've been to are 8-10 stages at 70-90 rounds.
    Stages are limited to 90 or 120 seconds, which means the average shooter can only get 8-10 rounds downrange from 3-5 positions. Targets will generally be 2-4 MOA, but you'll usually see at least one half moa target and usually some really big targets too at any given match. You'll usually see one or two stages per match where they'll push the pace by forcing a lot of positions, or force a mag change, or force port loading, etc. - stuff to keep it interesting, but not overwhelm the match with too many stages which might give some shooters an advantage, or disadvantage. Squads are usually 5-8 guys. With less than 5, guys get rushed because you need a spotter, shooter, and scorer up and going, while a 4th is getting ready. Guys need time to prep their range card, load mags, record dope, get a drink, etc. Then it's nice to have an extra spotter and a guy shagging brass. With more than 8, you have guys standing around too much waiting on the rest of their squad to finish. So say there are 50 shooters, break that into groups of 7-8 guys, that's 7 squads, which means at least 7 stages, and better 8-9 stages to let all squads be shooting without log jamming. If you run the math - 8 guys x 2 min per stage + 1min between shooters = 24min active shooting on stage = ~4hrs on stage, plus a few min walking between stages, RO/Squad Mom reading each stage briefing, safety briefing in the morning, lunch, any delays, awards after... Try to fit in 14 stages, then you're talking about ~7hrs on stages, plus all of the administrative stuff - makes for a REALLY long day. Alternatively, if you only draw 30 shooters and run 4 stages, guys will only shoot 30 or so shots, get done too quickly, and be left wanting for more. REALLY well ran matches with good squad moms/RO's can clip off 14 in a day and not feel rushed, but that's usually an accident.

    Most matches have accommodations to zero the day before during check in, but usually don’t allow zeroing the day of. No sighters, all shots are on the clock for score. Some matches may have a cold bore validation at check in to be sure new shooters are good to go before they send them out onto the range, reducing the risk of newbies sending rounds over the berm.

    Another tip I'd offer - a big mistake I made at my first matches - carry what you need on hand, but don't get a bag too big. Something the size of an Eberlestock Lo Drag II is about perfect (or Hi Speed II - same pack without the scabbard). You can carry what you need without breaking your back with stuff you might need, but could have left in the truck. I've had a rod in my truck at every match - it has been used at every match, never by me. I'm tempted to stick a 3 piece rod on my tripod from now on instead, so I don't have to run to the truck to help guys out. First aid kit as well (bandaids, gauze, bandage tape, alcohol and iodine wipes, rubber gloves) in my pack has been used at about half of matches, and SUNSCREEN. Something to cover your rifle & spotter from the sun, and rain gear. For shooting bags, get the Armageddon Gear Game Changer or Wiebad Fortune Cookie. Take your pick on whether you want a Pint Sized or Mini, or the full size versions. I use the full sized Fortune Cookie, but it's the biggest and heaviest of these - nice for filling in tank traps and odd barricades, not nice for carrying.
     
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  21. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Sounds like a lot of stuff to tote around.

    I need to figure out what all I need besides a gun, scope, and ammo.

    Sounds like I need a shooting bag, some sort of tripod, a bipod, spotting scope. Hopefully either the Celestron Regal 20-60x80F-ED or the Bushnell 15-45x60 I have will work. Both discontinued models.
     
  22. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    That Bushnell Legend T (Tactical) 15-45x60mm is pretty popular at matches. Long body spotters are really rare. Nice to have sometimes, but most of us use compact spotters or binos. I used a 20-60x Bushnell Elite at first because I owned it, then I got the T series 15-45x, but I’m using 15x Swarovski SLC binos now, very happy with them.
     
  23. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    I have the this one. It's 12.2" long. Dropped to $199.95 with free shipping last year.

    I see that one has a mil reticle FFP, is that needed? I can see where it would be a plus.
     
  24. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    The reticle in the spotter is really nice, but not a necessity. I really like it when I’m giving corrections to a new shooter (nobody else gets calls), but otherwise, it’s just kind of a nice thing to have. Like I said - I’ve stopped using that scope in favor of a pair of great binos.
     
  25. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    It seems like a lot, but really isn’t. I use an Eberlestock Halftrack, which is really too big for a match bag. My Bushnell Elite spotter on the tripod, rifle, and pack. Ammo in the top half, barricade bag in the bottom half. I’ll copy over my loadout list later. Lots of smalls, but really just “nice to have” stuff. You can see how sparse my kit really is - even though my loadout list might look super long.

     
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