Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)

[Nature Boy]

Or... I’ll just throw it in the river...

Since the rings and base were/are tight, I’m betting on the scope, but frustrated that it is not more obvious. Really hoping it’s that simple, not excited about tearing off this barrel when it’s only halfway done.

I don’t suppose you have a fixed power scope?

If so, that’s a good way to nail down the scope as the issue.

These guys have a device that allows you to check POI shift on scopes if you have a fixed power scope

https://fieldandcaveoutfitters.com/products/f-c-s-2018-picatinny-scope-checker-upper-mounts

Having said that, a half mil shift due to the scope should be apparent. That’s what has me scratching my head

 

[Walkalong]

but frustrated that it is not more obvious.

Yea, it always sucks when stuff won't just go ahead and break, since it makes it so much easier.

 

[Walkalong]

These guys have a device that allows you to check POI shift on scopes if you have a fixed power scope

https://fieldandcaveoutfitters.com/products/f-c-s-2018-picatinny-scope-checker-upper-mounts

That's pretty cool.

Here is another option to check tracking on scopes.

https://shop.shortactioncustoms.com...tenance-and-set-up/products/final-scope-level

Both are cheaper than this very nice scope checker tool.

http://www.targetsusa.com/scope-tools.html

 

[Varminterror]

Had a shop make me this one a few years ago:



I’m going to call Bushnell tomorrow and see about having them check it out. I have other scopes I can use in the meantime. I ran a 1mil by 1 mil box test at the range that morning and it printed a square - granted only one shot at each corner - using the reticle as the reference frame (shoot, dial 1 mil right, shoot, down, shoot, left, shoot, up, and shoot, holding the same POA for all shots). It made a mil by mil box, less my expected accuracy, so other than repeating a bunch of shots, it might be easier just to send it in for a health check anyway.

If it’s not the scope, I know it’s not the rings or base, and getting to an intermittent elevation bounce with any other theory within the rifle sounds a lot more like voodoo than gunsmithing or engineering. So I’m betting on a bouncing erector tube.

 

[Walkalong]

Had a shop make me this one a few years ago:

Nice, I've toyed with ideas for an easy to make one, not necessarily pretty, but functional.

 

[JFrank]

Or... I’ll just throw it in the river...

Since the rings and base were/are tight, I’m betting on the scope, but frustrated that it is not more obvious. Really hoping it’s that simple, not excited about tearing off this barrel when it’s only halfway done.

Not an expert but as an observer of scope checkers , If your scope isn’t holding poi the first shot is normally one spot than the next is somewhere else than the scope settles down but the damage is done already.
Put your backup scope on and check your rail torque while yer at it.
What ! No backup scope ???
Better order one quick

 

[Varminterror]

Put your backup scope on and check your rail torque while yer at it.
What ! No backup scope ???
Better order one quick

That’s the more frustrating part - I have back-up rifles and back-up scopes, but didn’t have any of it with me. Even as bad as to admit I won a Kahles k525i last month, but I had not had time to practice with it, so I didn’t mount it! I don’t typically take a backup rifle or scope to close matches (this one was only ~2.5hrs from home), but never again will I go without!

 

[JFrank]

That’s the more frustrating part - I have back-up rifles and back-up scopes, but didn’t have any of it with me. Even as bad as to admit I won a Kahles k525i last month, but I had not had time to practice with it, so I didn’t mount it! I don’t typically take a backup rifle or scope to close matches (this one was only ~2.5hrs from home), but never again will I go without!

Too familiar’
So you won that scope huh, that’s Pretty cool and a good one also.
Congratulations are in order cause winning isn’t easy.

 

[Varminterror]

Congratulations are in order cause winning isn’t easy.

A lot easier when you win it in a random drawing of shooters! Just gotta show up!

 

[Nature Boy]

I won a Kahles k525i last month

Accurate Shooters Forum did and extensive scope test across many makes and models looking for POI shift. Some were worse than others but Kahles was the only brand that had no shift. Because of that result, a guy over there took 10 each k1050s and several k525s and ran the test on them again. Every one passed with no POI shift.

 

[Bayourambler]

Just put together a rifle that I could use in a PRS match if I have an itch to do so. I was wondering what should the rifle weigh out ready to shoot? This one weighs in at 11 lb. 3oz. Seems pretty heavy for a short rifle.

 

[Varminterror]

@Bayourambler - you’ll likely do just fine with that rifle, although you’ll have quite a bit of movement in recoil. My match rifles are around 10lbs, and in 6mm’s instead of 6.5. You’ll have nearly twice the recoil velocity I have, so spotting your impacts might be a challenge from positional supports. Lots of guys do use 6.5’s or 308’s, even gas guns, so not having the “ideal” rifle is pretty common. As long as you have a good forward balance, can tolerate the recoil for 100 rounds per day, and can build your positions well enough to help manage recoil, you’ll still be a long ways ahead of where some folks start out.

 

[Bayourambler]

@Bayourambler - you’ll likely do just fine with that rifle, although you’ll have quite a bit of movement in recoil. My match rifles are around 10lbs, and in 6mm’s instead of 6.5. You’ll have nearly twice the recoil velocity I have, so spotting your impacts might be a challenge from positional supports. Lots of guys do use 6.5’s or 308’s, even gas guns, so not having the “ideal” rifle is pretty common. As long as you have a good forward balance, can tolerate the recoil for 100 rounds per day, and can build your positions well enough to help manage recoil, you’ll still be a long ways ahead of where some folks start out.

Thanks good to know! I have a suppressor in jail right now, waiting, wishing.... lol

 

[Walkalong]

Mine are 14 and 19 pounds unloaded, scope and all.

 

[Walkalong]

Made a way to mark loaded rounds with my Sinclair concentricity gauge.

 

[Picher]

One thing against it for "production class" which doesn't allow aftermarket triggers.

You'd think that Ruger would have an option for a Timney trigger. They'd probably sell more rifles and make extra money by including them as an installed option.

 

[Varminterror]

@Bayourambler - I just noticed I mis-typed in my post above, but I can’t edit it: my match rifles are around TWENTY pounds, not 10.

 

[Walkalong]

My advise is to buy a set of these before they go off sale. These are the best I have. They have a "leade" that gently tapers in and is a better design (IMHO) than the abrupt entrance of other bushings.

I have Wilson, RCBS, and Redding bushings. Of those the Wilson are the best as far as making concentric necks in bushing dies IMHO. At least for my 6 Creed with Hornady brass that was the answer, no more using two steps with two different bushing sizes, the Wilson bushing had less run out in one step than the others in two. The others in one step was bad.

From Mark at SAC

Our neck resizing bushings have minimized neck runout in cartridge brass in nearly every die we have used them in. After attempting to eliminate and reduce neck runout in our sized brass using various commercially available neck bushings, we realized that every neck bushing has the same flaw, a straight, undersized hole when compared to the brass.

Think about trying to push a thin walled straight tube into an undersized straight hole, how can we expect our brass necks to magically be free of runout. Our new bushings address the inherent flaws with this system with all new internal bushing geometry designed to reduce neck runout while increasing loaded cartridge concentricity in the chamber.

These are extremely well made, and someone should have thought of this years ago.

The .265 is back ordered, but these three came today. Testing with pin gauges was impressive.

I am using a .267 bushing for 6 Creed and my once fired Hornady cases will just barely start in
bushing, so the sizing transition will be smooth and supported all the way. I'm impressed, can't wait
to size a few cases and see how they do. The once fired Hornady cases I have were factory ammo
fired in the Seekins and the necks are pretty much dead straight before sizing (Same thing goes for
my 6 Dasher brass after firing in the Impact). Any run out after sizing is induced by the die/bushing.

 

[JFrank]

@Walkalong
Have you compared on paper, loads that are .005 out against loads that are .001 out note any difference in point of impact?

 

[Walkalong]

I have not, merely interested in loading straighter ammo. I would not suspect a different point of impact, merely a bit tighter groups/fewer errant shots overall with straighter ammo.

 

[Walkalong]

I don't know anything about these folks, but they have pre-fits for several actions, including the Havak action, haven't seen of of those until now.

https://straightjacketarmory.com/product/seekins-havak-prefit-barrel/

 

[Walkalong]

My advise is to buy a set of these before they go off sale. These are the best I have. They have a "leade" that gently tapers in and is a better design (IMHO) than the abrupt entrance of other bushings.

I have Wilson, RCBS, and Redding bushings. Of those the Wilson are the best as far as making concentric necks in bushing dies IMHO. At least for my 6 Creed with Hornady brass that was the answer, no more using two steps with two different bushing sizes, the Wilson bushing had less run out in one step than the others in two. The others in one step was bad.

From Mark at SAC


These are extremely well made, and someone should have thought of this years ago.

The .265 is back ordered, but these three came today. Testing with pin gauges was impressive.

I am using a .267 bushing for 6 Creed and my once fired Hornady cases will just barely start in
bushing, so the sizing transition will be smooth and supported all the way. I'm impressed, can't wait
to size a few cases and see how they do. The once fired Hornady cases I have were factory ammo
fired in the Seekins and the necks are pretty much dead straight before sizing (Same thing goes for
my 6 Dasher brass after firing in the Impact). Any run out after sizing is induced by the die/bushing.
View attachment 936748

I have since tested these and they do indeed work better. Good stuff

 

[Walkalong]

So I had to use RCBS bushings in two steps to size down the Hornady 6 Creed cases with decent run-out, and going back to the Wilson bushing let me do it in one step.

The SAC bushing is better, showing .001 or less run-out on necks after sizing and expanding with the Sinclair nitrided .241 mandrel. My .265 bushing came in so I have the set.

The mandrel is moving donuts from the inside to the outside on annealed cases, which is good.

After annealing, I am chamfering the outside of necks prior to sizing so no sharp burrs are there (from hitting concrete etc on ejection) when being pushed through the bushing. Then, after the sizing, tumbling to remove lube, trimming, primer pocket uniforming, chamfering/deburring (VLD deburring) and tumbling again. Then expanding with the .241 mandrel. I'll be loading some tomorrow and will check bullet run-out, but cases are straighter to start off now than they were before.

The 21st Century expander and neck turn mandrels and die body are just as good as the Sinclair.

 

[Walkalong]

I don't know anything about these folks, but they have pre-fits for several actions, including the Havak action, haven't seen of of those until now.

https://straightjacketarmory.com/product/seekins-havak-prefit-barrel/

Anyone know anything about this outfit?

 

[Varminterror]

I’ve chatted with the Straight Jacket guys a few times. They seem to have their poop in a group - pricing includes the convenience fee of a prefit barrel, so I don’t expect to buy from them any time soon (ends up a couple hundred bucks more expensive than buying a blank and having a local precision riflesmith thread and chamber), but in a pinch for time, I’d be confident it would shoot small.