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Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Walkalong, Dec 21, 2018.

  1. Gtscotty

    Gtscotty Member

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    Can't buy that of course, but it seems like you're on the right track to getting set up. I was more throwing that out there for other folks who may read this that are less committed, or have fewer funds they can allot to the hobby, but are still interested and might want to give it a try.
     
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  2. Legionnaire
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    Legionnaire Member

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    Great thread; thanks! I'm not looking to get into competition, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in learning.
     
  3. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    The hog/pig saddle is just a clamp kinda like the side and base of a mechanical bench rest, |_| You set the rifle in the clamp, tighten it down. The RRS is a better product than the Hog Saddle, if you get one. Basically, if you don’t have an arca rail to hard mount the rifle to the tripod, the hog saddle lets you emulate it.

    The Tac table is just a flat plate which sits on top of your tripod, I’ve seen them 4”x8” or as big as 10”x 14” ish. They really only work to set things on. I have only ever seen guys set the rear stock on the table (on a pump pillow) during a match, but I have seen pictures of guys placing their shooting elbow on the table and kinda laying on it with the stock high on their shoulder. Definitely not my method, but I think some guys work our innovative ways to use their toys once they own them.

    You’ll see guys carry a lot of stuff during a match, maybe only use it when they try to cheat by wedging **** under a boat simulator to eliminate the swing. For me, I use my one barricade bag for everything, MAYBE pull out the pump pillow or lay on my pack if I need to fill in some space to support my body. A lot of guys, especially the older guys who might not be as flexible, do use pump pillows or packs as rear support on rooftops, which you’ll see a lot. I’ve done so too, kinda depends how I’m feeling that day. When it comes to gear: I don’t want to need to own “a trick for every trap” - I prefer to have one trick which works for a lot of options.
     
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  4. Gtscotty

    Gtscotty Member

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    Have you had an opportunity to check out the Bighorn Origin? If so, thoughts? I've got a hankering to put a rifle together and have been reading about the Nucleus and Origin, but haven't had the chance to lay hands on either yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
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  5. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks, so eventually I want a tripod setup that will attach to the arca rail I will be putting on the Bravo stock. But a setup to support the rear of the stock is needed/handy as well.
    :oops: :)
    Makes sense. Especially for old guys lugging stuff around. :D

    Great stuff. :)
     
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  6. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    I almost never shoot from the top of the tripod. Supporting the gun in the center up high is way less stable than resting the front is the gun on a window/fence/whatever and the squeezing rear of the gun into the leg of a tripod. Partly this is because in this position your body leans into the tripod and it stabilizes you too.

    I paid way too much for the rrs vyce Which is their expensive version of hog saddle. I gave it to a friend cause I never use it.

    In matches I just carry the tripod itself. No head. I just use the legs.

    I’d say the answer is yes but way low on priorities list. Until you find yourself in a cheat high hay field lol
     
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  7. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    I have shot Bighorn TL3's, but have only seen an Origin, not fired one. Based on the TL3's and what was changed to make the Origin, I have every expectation it will be a fantastic action.

    I always end up in the same circle when I consider these lower cost actions. The Origin is a fantastic action, and better than any factory Remington you're going to find (or Ruger American, Savage, Win 70, etc). So are the ARC Nucleus, the PT&G blueprinted Rem's, Kelby Atlas, etc in that ballpark. They're all down-featured roughly the same - pinned lug and bolted rail instead of integral. So say a guy gets a $750-850 action instead of an $1100-1300 action (sale prices you can knock a couple hundred bucks off of the top end guys, get down around $1000-1050).

    Say I'm a hunter who wants to build a custom rifle, which might kill 20-30 deer before it's passed on. I'll never wear out a barrel, I can't justify ANYTHING with economics, because I'm spending a few thousand dollars on a hunting rifle which won't kill any more deer in a lifetime than a $400 package Savage Axis. I'm spending that because I want something I really feel great about owning and hunting.

    Say I'm a casual match shooter who puts down roughly one club match per month during season (9), and maybe 3-4 big national matches. Call that 12 match days per year, 1200rnds, plus half as many in load development, practice, DOPE work up/truing, etc good for 1800 rounds, let's say 6.5 Creed - $700 installed barrel good for 3,000rnds = 23c per shot. 42grn H4350 = 18c per shot. 140 Hybrids = 44c each, BR2's = 5c each, brass call it a dime per shot ($1/pc with 10 loads brass life). Call it a dollar a shot, good for $1800 per year in ammo. Now say $40 per club match, $250 per big match = $1,360, call it $1400 with your $50 club membership, plus a few nights in hotels, a few meals on the road, and a few hundred miles of fuel. Let's just say this is $600 off of the cuff (splitting hotels and fuel with another shooter or two). So $1800 in ammo, $1,400 in match fees, $600 in fuel, we're just under $4,000 for the year, and you're not even a die-hard competitor, just a dude running around having a little fun.

    We all know the pro competitors are spending a heck of a lot more than the casual guy.

    So I kinda laugh at myself at the end of this circle - I remember how silly it is to try to save money on my ACTION, the only part of my rifle which won't ever change, and I save a little longer to get the action I really want.

    At the other end - I'm hard pressed to convince myself to buy any factory hunting rifle any more, when a guy can buy an Origin/Nucleus/Atlas/etc for a very reasonable price.
     
  8. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Might as well ask about scope rings. I see all kinds of nice looking rings out there with a high price and a "We make the best/tightest tolerance/straightest/most perfect rings" advertising.

    I assume Nightforce is a big player, and read good things about Vortex rings. Spuhr rings/mounts also seem to be very popular. I have TPS rings on my FN-SPR and they are nice.
     
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  9. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Vortex precision matched rings are made by Seekins. Very good rings, at about the lowest cost. Nightforce are great, Spuhr the best.
     
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  10. Legionnaire
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    Legionnaire Member

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    What about Badger? I’ve always heard good things about them ...
     
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  11. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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  12. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Badger = very good. Nightforce and Vortex/Seekins give great deals for Mil/LEO/Instructors, so I use them over Badger, but I have never been disappointed in a Badger product (mostly bottom metal and extraneous stuff, only a couple sets of rings in the past).
     
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  13. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    I have most of the good rings. Currently using spuhr. However that’s only because I need the rail on top for nv and lrf. If I didn’t I’d prefer using steel Talley rings instead of aluminum.
    Nf makes good stuff too but I’m very disappointed that only one tiny piece of their titanium rings are titanium.
    Badger is good. Mpa would be a good choice too.
     
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  14. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    Knowing what I know, I wouldn’t consider anything other than impact or defiance in a stand alone action.
    As part of a complete semi custom rifle like havak that’s a different story.
    Most of the custom actions, despite the price, still have some bugs to work out
     
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  15. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    No love for Surgeon? Those are the 3 which I’d buy for PRS. I have been really happy with Stiller Predators for hunting and Stolle Panda’s for benchrest, but fast forward 10yrs and talk precision repeaters, the Defiance, Surgeon, and Impact triad are my menu options.

    I originally walked through the details of the Seekins Havak if a guy would build it on its own in the economic breakdown I did above, but deleted it for brevity - but @taliv is right, the bundle deal for the Havak factory rifle really changes the dynamic. $1800 for the Havak I bought, but it would be: $450 McMillan Game Warden, $350 Rock Creek blank plus $300 in Smith labor for thread, chamber, and muzzle thread (then $300 for the spiral fluting, which I would pass on otherwise), $175 for Seekins bottom metal, $125 for Timney 510, and $70 for a pair of Pmags... you’re getting the Havak action for about $300-350 in that package. I’m very tempted to get another one to match this one, or build something on their action - and might still get (kinda like the lines for a hunting pistol, and like the feeding of their unique lug alignment). But for even money, the Defiance is enough better, building on the Seekins from bare action isn’t logical.
     
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  16. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    No I would not buy a surgeon
     
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  17. Gtscotty

    Gtscotty Member

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    You wouldn't even recommend the ARC and Bighorn actions? I'm curious why?
     
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  18. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    I ran bighorns for years. The first and second gen. There’s a lot to like about them. Very slick. But they don’t eject worth a crap. So many malfunctions. They never could fix it. I assume that’s why they went to crf on the third gen but I don’t want crf and wasn’t willing to take a chance on it. I personally believe the ejection port geometry is wrong.

    I never ran the arc but I don’t like the idea
     
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  19. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Those look nice. And with a one piece you could move the scope around if you wanted/needed to. That's not guaranteed with a two ring setup.
     
  20. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    For a serious competitor building from scratch it would make sense to buy the best action available and go from there. But we all have limitations on what we can spend. For some it will be one rifle and one rifle only, for some it will be multiples (Which of course makes it even harder to buy the best every time), and very few of us have unlimited funds.

    I thought long and hard over the last couple of years about buying an action, then this and that as money was available, and building a long range gun, but didn't know where to start and what to buy. After some questions and some great feedback it makes sense for me to go the semi custom ready to shoot rifle path and go from there.

    I'll never be a big time competitor who shoots a lot and travels etc, but I can always shoot the 300 yard reduced target F-Class at the local gun range, and there is a fairly close place to shoot 600 yard F-Class I could go to, and Alabama Precision isn't too far of a ride and that is what I would like to do one of these days. My end goal is to shoot some PRS matches. Start with a one day match and go from there. Need to work out some things besides equipment. :)
     
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  21. lightman

    lightman Member

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    I do both, Kentucky windage and dialing. It just depends. If I'm shooting Prairie Dogs in a large town and have a stiff cross wind I'll dial the scope. Or if I see a coyote walk out in the open sniffing around for just the perfect place to________, (well you know), I'll dial. If time is short I'll hold over.The Zero stop feature on NightForce scopes is really helpful for returning to zero. It takes most of the shooters memory out of the picture.

    As far as scope experiences go, I really like NightForce. I have had B&L, Leupold MK 4 and a few others. I have a March 10 X 60 on my current benchrest rifle. The NightForce has a lot of adjustment, is sturdy and has decent glass.

    In a later post You ask about range of adjustment. NF has a lot, some models have 100 inches/moa. This should get most calibers to 1K. The spec sheet should have this info on it. For long range I run a 20 MOA rail on most of my rifles. This gives me a 100 yard sight in with a little adjustment (very little) for closer shots and a lot of adjustment for longer range.

    You can find some deals on used NF over on Snipershide or Accurateshooter sometimes.
     
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  22. z7

    z7 Member

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    @Walkalong from your last post I think it sounds like you are going the seekins rout?

    I thought I would share some vids from some of my PRS matches. I have shot 5 of them so far. you can see from the vids I have made significant progress. part of that is learning how to solve problems, part of that is focusing on being a good fundamental rifleman (which is my #1 goal)

    my rifle is a top quality build, but I am far from playing a gear race game. I have ONE magazine
    American rifle company mausingfield,
    K&P cut rifle barrel, rem varm contour, 1-10' twist chambered in 308 win and finished at 24" with Longrifle Inc's 3 port break.
    jewel trigger
    KRG x-ray stock with a spigot mount
    vortex razor gen ii 3-18 and american rifle company rings

    I am using winchester brass, varget and 178 ELD-M bullets are 2660fps

    bags: Tab gear rear bag, Bison Tactical's tactical Udder, and a few times a weibad berry bag
    anything else I use is borrowed (except that big black bag, I made that one, actually doesn't help that much because I fight it)
    2nd match:

    3rd match:


    5th match:
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/my-competition-journey.836825/
     
  23. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    That’s pretty awesome. If I were 30-40 years younger I’d be all over that.
     
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  24. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    The best part is the people you get to hang out with. Definitely not the gun show gun store crowd. Will restore your faith in the gun culture lol
     
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  25. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    Even if various physical or financial issues prevent you from competing you can still participate. Never seen a match with too many ROs. Go volunteer
     
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