Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)

[Tinker-S]

I don't notice it so much in the middle of the match, but I pay for it on the drive home and the next day
usually the knees and elbows are sore lol
beats not being able to shoot though anyday....I'll take sore on Sunday if I get to shoot and compete on Saturday

I should have taken to the sport when young, but I had a family to grow!
Now, just like you describe the "after the competition effect", most everything hurts at the end of the day!
But I keep coming back for more!

 

[Varminterror]

Giggle snort, what do these young guns know..........

Like you mentioned - PRS is still a “physical game,” but it HAS toned down a lot in the last few years as competition has standardized.

The Police/Tactical games I shot 15-20yrs ago were a completely different animal, but even 5-6 years ago, PRS matches were very different as well. “Stressor stages” were pretty common, like starting a stage with an empty mag and being made to run 10yrds back and forth to pick up one round at a time, or dragging a tire 10-15yrds between shots. I shot a match once where one stage we were made to do a burpee between shots. Obstacles which I’d say qualified as “you’d better be young and in shape” were more common as well - I mentioned above being made to climb a 20ft cargo net and fire from the rail at the top, but I also shot a stage with 5 windows in a connex box where we had to go prone from each position - two on the sides with a waist high divider and with three in the middle which were stacked, picture bunk beds, so we jumped to the top bunk above my head, fired prone there, then moved to the bottom bunk and fired prone there, then went under the bottom bunk and fired prone on the floor, then had to crawl over a divider and go prone in the last window - I’m 5’10” and 200lbs, and it was a bitch just physically fitting into the platforms… at one range, we used to crawl down into this dugout bunker like a machine gun or sniper nest, and shoot from multiple port holes - and the bunker was only about waist high, and not actually long enough to fit your body flat, so in the prone windows we were bent with our legs upward behind us, and the non-prone positions were kind of a fetal position on our side because we didn’t really fit in the bunker sitting. I shot a match were we had to flip a tractor tire between positions, drag a tire or a dummy, burpees, climb into, over, under, and onto stuff OSHA would consider confined space or excessive height requiring tie off, all kinds of crazy stuff. The matches were fun, but they weren’t really just tests of marksmanship skills.

So even from a relatively young perspective (“young” by the bounds of PRS competition, where most 20 somethings aren’t around as they lack disposable income), matches used to pretty commonly include stages which anyone would call “terribly physical”. It’s still physical, but guys have to seek out specialized stressor matches these days if they want that, whereas it really wasn’t so long ago that we had those kinds of stressor stages built into normal PRS/NRL/BW matches.

 

[Tinker-S]

Not many stages are terribly physical any more - the worst is about like climbing a ladder with a 20lb rifle. @walkalong’s rock pile above is the most physically demanding I have seen in a few years. At a match in ‘17 or ‘18, we climbed a 20ft cargo net and shot from the rail at the top… definitely wasn’t an OSHA approved activity…



A lot of guys have started bringing firewood wagons or jogging strollers, much like the gun carts used in other disciplines. I just hang my rifle from my backpack shoulder strap, and either sling my tripod or tip it over one shoulder, but I’m in relatively good shape. Some ranges get a bit long between stage locations, especially wrapping from the last stage back to the first, so a lot of guys have started bringing some kind of cart.

So, what is a typical PRS competition like?
On my local range, we have a member that shoot PRS competitions very often, and has a cool jersey, too!
I will ask him for guidance and see if I have a rifle in the safe I can take to see if I like the competition.
Potentially, I could use an PRP in 6.5CM, but I have to do something to avoid the sharp corners on this rifle. I have only put 50 rounds through it.
I wanted to use my .243 varmint profile, but the barrel twist is too slow to use anything above 90Gr bullets.

 

[Tinker-S]

Like you mentioned - PRS is still a “physical game,” but it HAS toned down a lot in the last few years as competition has standardized.

The Police/Tactical games I shot 15-20yrs ago were a completely different animal, but even 5-6 years ago, PRS matches were very different as well. “Stressor stages” were pretty common, like starting a stage with an empty mag and being made to run 10yrds back and forth to pick up one round at a time, or dragging a tire 10-15yrds between shots. I shot a match once where one stage we were made to do a burpee between shots. Obstacles which I’d say qualified as “you’d better be young and in shape” were more common as well - I mentioned above being made to climb a 20ft cargo net and fire from the rail at the top, but I also shot a stage with 5 windows in a connex box where we had to go prone from each position - two on the sides with a waist high divider and with three in the middle which were stacked, picture bunk beds, so we jumped to the top bunk above my head, fired prone there, then moved to the bottom bunk and fired prone there, then went under the bottom bunk and fired prone on the floor, then had to crawl over a divider and go prone in the last window - I’m 5’10” and 200lbs, and it was a bitch just physically fitting into the platforms… at one range, we used to crawl down into this dugout bunker like a machine gun or sniper nest, and shoot from multiple port holes - and the bunker was only about waist high, and not actually long enough to fit your body flat, so in the prone windows we were bent with our legs upward behind us, and the non-prone positions were kind of a fetal position on our side because we didn’t really fit in the bunker sitting. I shot a match were we had to flip a tractor tire between positions, drag a tire or a dummy, burpees, climb into, over, under, and onto stuff OSHA would consider confined space or excessive height requiring tie off, all kinds of crazy stuff. The matches were fun, but they weren’t really just tests of marksmanship skills.

So even from a relatively young perspective (“young” by the bounds of PRS competition, where most 20 somethings aren’t around as they lack disposable income), matches used to pretty commonly include stages which anyone would call “terribly physical”. It’s still physical, but guys have to seek out specialized stressor matches these days if they want that, whereas it really wasn’t so long ago that we had those kinds of stressor stages built into normal PRS/NRL/BW matches.

Hell no!
If the matches are like that, I would not make it! Or else, I would have to start the "Ranger candy" diet a week before, the week of, and a week after the event!
But it will not deter me from doing it!
How big are the targets on a PRS?
Are sighting shots allowed?

 

[Varminterror]

So, what is a typical PRS competition like?

These days, it’s pretty formulaic. There are two kinds of (centerfire) PRS matches, one day “Regional series” matches, and 2 day “pro series” matches. Both kinds will typically shoot 8-12 stages per day, at 8-12 rounds per stage. Around half of shots will be from prone or modified prone (standing behind a bench-like obstacle, using front bipod and rear bag), with the other half being “positional,” meaning fired from some obstacle - like a tank trap, barricade wall, truck side mirror, cattle gate, rooftop, etc etc. Shooters are divided into squads, and each squad rotates through each stage, with each shooter taking turn in rotating order to shoot the stages. Stages typically start standing, port arms, mag in, bolt back, standing behind the obstacle or firing position. Stages are timed, “shooter understand the course of fire? Spotter ready? Shooter ready? Time starts now!” And then the shooter has 90-120 seconds to engage the targets. Stages will typically have 1-5 firing positions, sometimes up to 10 positions. Obstacles might be a wall, a helicopter, cattle cake feeder, flatbed, tank traps, etc etc…

Most stages are 2-5 targets, I’ve only seen a handful of stages which had more than 6 targets, and can only think of one stage I’ve shot which had 9 targets (spelling “Spearpoint” with 10 rounds, so the P is engaged twice).

So a common stage would be: 2 targets, near and far, say 453yrds 8” circle and 628yrds 18” circle and you’ll shoot one shot at each target from 3 positions on a tank trap, then two rungs of a cattle gate. 90 seconds, time starts now. Another stage would be all prone, shoot 2 shots each at 5 targets at 632, 741, 853, 928, and 1067yrds, 50% IPSC up close, 66% IPSC up close then full size IPSC for the farther 3.

Hell no!
If the matches are like that, I would not make it!

Like I said - matches are much less physical than they used to be. They’re still physical, but climbing stuff like the rock pile @Walkalong pictured is about as dynamic as things get. Especially after covid, the PRS has changed to be more accommodating of more shooters, so the crazy stressor stuff and dangerous obstacle stuff is gone.

Our state club has a lot of retirees which shoot our regional matches, dudes with knee and hip replacements - I know a couple guys are in their 70’s, and we have at least one guy I know in his 80’s.

We also make accommodations at matches so guys can safely complete the CoF. For example, we used to have one of our older shooters start staged on our rooftop instead of standing behind it and trying to run up on the clock.

How big are the targets on a PRS?

Most targets will be 1-3moa. Occasionally we’ll see a 1/2moa target, especially on TYL racks (test your limits, progressively smaller targets side by side). Match directors mix up distance, target size, stage movement, wind condition, and firing position stability with pretty common logic - closer targets don’t have as much wind penalty, so they will often be combined with a lot of movement and unstable positions. The longest targets typically are huge and fired from prone. MOST shots tend to be 600-700 yards, but overall, shooters should expect targets to be ~250-1400 yards.

Are sighting shots allowed?

No, but functionally, sighters don’t really fit the paradigm anyway. Our targets are relatively big and our conditions are changing throughout the day, or even during a single stage (might shoot 90-100degrees different angle on the same stage, so the wind changes dramatically, so sighters just don’t really fit the format. A 100yrd zero board is typically available in the morning before the match starts for shooters to confirm zero, and it’s usually still accessible for zero confirmation during the day if guys have issues, but there are no sighters on any stage. But every shot is a sighter - you should be getting feedback from every bullet sent downrange.

 

[Walkalong]

How physically demanding? Not overly bad, like I said, lack of speed hurts me more than the physical ability to do it. I’m 5’10” 190/195 lbs, in good shape, very good compared to many, always been very athletic etc, so I’m ok, but I do pay the price, old joints etc. I take two ibuprofen the night before and two aleve the morning of.

Just do it, it’s a blast.

 

[Tinker-S]

How physically demanding? Not overly bad, like I said, lack of speed hurts me more than the physical ability to do it. I’m 5’10” 190/195 lbs, in good shape, very good compared to many, always been very athletic etc, so I’m ok, but I do pay the price, old joints etc. I take two ibuprofen the night before and two aleve the morning of.

Just do it, it’s a blast.

Sounds like a blast!
I will probably go with my club buddy to see how it goes. I could give it a try.

 

[Tinker-S]

These days, it’s pretty formulaic. There are two kinds of (centerfire) PRS matches, one day “Regional series” matches, and 2 day “pro series” matches. Both kinds will typically shoot 8-12 stages per day, at 8-12 rounds per stage. Around half of shots will be from prone or modified prone (standing behind a bench-like obstacle, using front bipod and rear bag), with the other half being “positional,” meaning fired from some obstacle - like a tank trap, barricade wall, truck side mirror, cattle gate, rooftop, etc etc. Shooters are divided into squads, and each squad rotates through each stage, with each shooter taking turn in rotating order to shoot the stages. Stages typically start standing, port arms, mag in, bolt back, standing behind the obstacle or firing position. Stages are timed, “shooter understand the course of fire? Spotter ready? Shooter ready? Time starts now!” And then the shooter has 90-120 seconds to engage the targets. Stages will typically have 1-5 firing positions, sometimes up to 10 positions. Obstacles might be a wall, a helicopter, cattle cake feeder, flatbed, tank traps, etc etc…

Most stages are 2-5 targets, I’ve only seen a handful of stages which had more than 6 targets, and can only think of one stage I’ve shot which had 9 targets (spelling “Spearpoint” with 10 rounds, so the P is engaged twice).

So a common stage would be: 2 targets, near and far, say 453yrds 8” circle and 628yrds 18” circle and you’ll shoot one shot at each target from 3 positions on a tank trap, then two rungs of a cattle gate. 90 seconds, time starts now. Another stage would be all prone, shoot 2 shots each at 5 targets at 632, 741, 853, 928, and 1067yrds, 50% IPSC up close, 66% IPSC up close then full size IPSC for the farther 3.



Like I said - matches are much less physical than they used to be. They’re still physical, but climbing stuff like the rock pile @Walkalong pictured is about as dynamic as things get. Especially after covid, the PRS has changed to be more accommodating of more shooters, so the crazy stressor stuff and dangerous obstacle stuff is gone.

Our state club has a lot of retirees which shoot our regional matches, dudes with knee and hip replacements - I know a couple guys are in their 70’s, and we have at least one guy I know in his 80’s.

We also make accommodations at matches so guys can safely complete the CoF. For example, we used to have one of our older shooters start staged on our rooftop instead of standing behind it and trying to run up on the clock.



Most targets will be 1-3moa. Occasionally we’ll see a 1/2moa target, especially on TYL racks (test your limits, progressively smaller targets side by side). Match directors mix up distance, target size, stage movement, wind condition, and firing position stability with pretty common logic - closer targets don’t have as much wind penalty, so they will often be combined with a lot of movement and unstable positions. The longest targets typically are huge and fired from prone. MOST shots tend to be 600-700 yards, but overall, shooters should expect targets to be ~250-1400 yards.



No, but functionally, sighters don’t really fit the paradigm anyway. Our targets are relatively big and our conditions are changing throughout the day, or even during a single stage (might shoot 90-100degrees different angle on the same stage, so the wind changes dramatically, so sighters just don’t really fit the format. A 100yrd zero board is typically available in the morning before the match starts for shooters to confirm zero, and it’s usually still accessible for zero confirmation during the day if guys have issues, but there are no sighters on any stage. But every shot is a sighter - you should be getting feedback from every bullet sent downrange.

Good info!
I always think of the guys on the TV shows, huffing and puffing, carrying dummies on their back, or towing a monster truck tire before engaging 2 miles away tiny targets.
But with your info, I will look into it, just for fun!
Thank you. I do appreciate your time to write such a good explanation.

 

[GoldieMI]

Sounds like a blast!
I will probably go with my club buddy to see how it goes. I could give it a try.

just go and have fun...enjoy it. worst thing is you don't actually enjoy it. But I think you will.
I mean, where else can you rip your bolt out, give yourself a bloody nose, and keep shooting the string of fire? or work on jams that only happen after your brain gets dumb because the timer went beep... that's part of the uniqueness for me. I mean my serial number on my Defiance Action Dasher is 0311...I can break it on the clock lol.
I do it, I enjoy it...usually finish in the middle of the pack, but I'm okay with that.

 

[Axis II]

Like you mentioned - PRS is still a “physical game,” but it HAS toned down a lot in the last few years as competition has standardized.

The Police/Tactical games I shot 15-20yrs ago were a completely different animal, but even 5-6 years ago, PRS matches were very different as well. “Stressor stages” were pretty common, like starting a stage with an empty mag and being made to run 10yrds back and forth to pick up one round at a time, or dragging a tire 10-15yrds between shots. I shot a match once where one stage we were made to do a burpee between shots. Obstacles which I’d say qualified as “you’d better be young and in shape” were more common as well - I mentioned above being made to climb a 20ft cargo net and fire from the rail at the top, but I also shot a stage with 5 windows in a connex box where we had to go prone from each position - two on the sides with a waist high divider and with three in the middle which were stacked, picture bunk beds, so we jumped to the top bunk above my head, fired prone there, then moved to the bottom bunk and fired prone there, then went under the bottom bunk and fired prone on the floor, then had to crawl over a divider and go prone in the last window - I’m 5’10” and 200lbs, and it was a bitch just physically fitting into the platforms… at one range, we used to crawl down into this dugout bunker like a machine gun or sniper nest, and shoot from multiple port holes - and the bunker was only about waist high, and not actually long enough to fit your body flat, so in the prone windows we were bent with our legs upward behind us, and the non-prone positions were kind of a fetal position on our side because we didn’t really fit in the bunker sitting. I shot a match were we had to flip a tractor tire between positions, drag a tire or a dummy, burpees, climb into, over, under, and onto stuff OSHA would consider confined space or excessive height requiring tie off, all kinds of crazy stuff. The matches were fun, but they weren’t really just tests of marksmanship skills.

So even from a relatively young perspective (“young” by the bounds of PRS competition, where most 20 somethings aren’t around as they lack disposable income), matches used to pretty commonly include stages which anyone would call “terribly physical”. It’s still physical, but guys have to seek out specialized stressor matches these days if they want that, whereas it really wasn’t so long ago that we had those kinds of stressor stages built into normal PRS/NRL/BW matches.

You just gave me flashbacks, and bad ones at that to when I was in the police academy that was run by retired swat guys. Vest, full duty belt, outside, 30degrees, do 20 jumping jacks, run 50yards as fast as you can, burpees, or push-ups and then fire your handgun with mag reloads on a dueling tree against another cadet. Another was the same way but do push-ups at 75 and run to where you grab an AR or shotgun with slugs and take out targets 50-75yards away with use of a barricade.

 

[Tinker-S]

just go and have fun...enjoy it. worst thing is you don't actually enjoy it. But I think you will.
I mean, where else can you rip your bolt out, give yourself a bloody nose, and keep shooting the string of fire? or work on jams that only happen after your brain gets dumb because the timer went beep... that's part of the uniqueness for me. I mean my serial number on my Defiance Action Dasher is 0311...I can break it on the clock lol.
I do it, I enjoy it...usually finish in the middle of the pack, but I'm okay with that.

Even if I finish dead last, I will enjoy it, and if in the end I am dead, well, C'est la vie!
I just have to inquire about weapon requirements: I plan to build a .243 based on a 700Rem short action and a suitable barrel and KRG stock. Some of the parts are already on order. I have no desire to dump $2.5K on a scope and rings for this mongrel I want to put together, so I will use a mongrel scope of the few on the parts bin. I will see what comes up of this hodge-podge.

 

[Varminterror]

I plan to build a .243 based on a 700Rem short action and a suitable barrel and KRG stock.

This’ll do, donkey, this’ll do.

Fast twist 243win with a heavy contour will do fine, just eats barrels faster than other options.

A guy CAN get into this with a $600 scope like Vortex Viper PST II, Venom, or Strike Eagle, or Athlon or Arken, or Bushnell MatchPro, or Burris RT25. Get a first focal plane scope with a zero stop and a graduated, milliradian based reticle and turrets, and you’ll be in the hunt.

 

[Walkalong]

Get a first focal plane scope with a zero stop

Yes, picked up a nice Crimson Trace 50% off, and I like it a lot, but you don't know how nice/handy a zero stop is until it isn't there. Sure, I can find/dial to the correct zero on it no real problem, but a zero stop sure is nice.

 

[Tinker-S]

This’ll do, donkey, this’ll do.

Fast twist 243win with a heavy contour will do fine, just eats barrels faster than other options.

A guy CAN get into this with a $600 scope like Vortex Viper PST II, Venom, or Strike Eagle, or Athlon or Arken, or Bushnell MatchPro, or Burris RT25. Get a first focal plane scope with a zero stop and a graduated, milliradian based reticle and turrets, and you’ll be in the hunt.

Yeah!
That is the plan. I thought that 1:7 twist was "too much", but with it, I can send good medicine down range, like 112Gr with a varmint profile barrel. I did entertain the idea of an AMU (or something like that) profile, but I think it will be too much. I want to build something with a RemAge nut, so barrel changes are less to wrestle with. At least 2000 rounds before barrel change, I think.
True about the FFP scope, and I do understand a bit on how important zero stop is. I like mil mil scopes. Easy to hold over/under.

 

[Tinker-S]

Yes, picked up a nice Crimson Trace 50% off, and I like it a lot, but you don't know how nice/handy a zero stop is until it isn't there. Sure, I can find/dial to the correct zero on it no real problem, but a zero stop sure is nice.

I saw the Crimson somewhere local, and I did not jump on it. Good deal, too.
I am going to talk to the guy at the club house. He procures good stuff for me at cost, and other perks. There is a Leupold that he is trying to get rid off, but it is more than I want to dump on a scope ($1200), but he has a nice collection on the showcase, along with firearms, ammo and other things to keep us spending our salary on.
On my Service Rifle clone, I have an inexpensive Athlon that has the zero stop feature, and it makes adjustments easier, just in case I were to get lost in the "heat of competition"!
In the past, I had use the "Hold over" method, just so I would not get lost.

 

[Varminterror]

At least 2000 rounds before barrel change, I think.

If you’re only shooting 1 day PRS matches, a 243win MIGHT be managed for 2000, but I never got that many out of 243win. I used to pull my 243win and AI barrels at 900 rounds. I wouldn’t trust a 243win after 1200 for sure at a 2 day match - it’ll likely be running 30-40fps slower by the end of a match than on day one…

 

[C-grunt]

I guess the VA is waiting until January to complete all the PACT act submissions. So my new scopes are being pushed out a bit. Im gonna throw my Nikon FX1000 on the Bergara B14R.

What range do yall use for 22 precision/long range rifles? Im thinking 50 yards.

 

[Varminterror]

What range do yall use for 22 precision/long range rifles? Im thinking 50 yards.

I zero both RF and CF at 100, but we’re dialing no matter what, so the only real difference is the zero stop.

 

[Tinker-S]

If you’re only shooting 1 day PRS matches, a 243win MIGHT be managed for 2000, but I never got that many out of 243win. I used to pull my 243win and AI barrels at 900 rounds. I wouldn’t trust a 243win after 1200 for sure at a 2 day match - it’ll likely be running 30-40fps slower by the end of a match than on day one…

Wow!
Good info to know!
So, I guess I will be using the 6.5CM and see what the round count for that would be like.
I have 500 new cheap brass cases to reload for the 243Win, that is one of the factors to use it. That, and the affordable propellant and bullets. I could use the new barrel till it shoots shotgun patterns, and change to another cartridge at EOL (End of Life).
What do you shoot? GT?
My club buddy uses, and likes his GT, but for me it will be more reloading components to go after, and I do not know if brass is available on the cheap brass brand names like Starline.

 

[Tinker-S]

I zero both RF and CF at 100, but we’re dialing no matter what, so the only real difference is the zero stop.

What little I know is that with a zero stop scope, if I zeroed it at ,say 200 yards, and then I get to shoot something that is below zero, I have to hold under, because I cannot dial down from the stop. I do not know if this is a "user's head space and timing" issue or not.

 

[Walkalong]

Yes, hold under, but we all zero at 100 yards, and I have never had to shoot that close at a PRS match. I have dialed for a certain yardage and held under for another though.

 

[Tinker-S]

Yes, hold under, but we all zero at 100 yards, and I have never had to shoot that close at a PRS match. I have dialed for a certain yardage and held under for another though.

I know.
In my case, I zero my SR at 200 because that is the distance for the first stage. The rest of the stages are 300 and 600 yards.

 

[Varminterror]

What do you shoot? GT?

My match rifles are 6 Dasher and 6 creed. I’ve been loading Dasher for a long time, and got into 6 creed in ~2015, replacing 243win and 243AI, predating the GT. I could easily be convinced to shoot GT instead of 6 creed for the greatly improved barrel life, and might equally appreciate broader factory support for 6GT than Dasher, if I were starting over.

if I zeroed it at ,say 200 yards

The downside of a 200yrd zero for PRS is the fact all hosting ranges will offer a 100yrd zero board for confirmation/correction.

 

[Walkalong]

My buddy Jeff loves his GT. When he shoots his Dasher, which he also likes a lot, he enjoys the lack of muzzle jump, but in the end he likes the added FPS the GT brings without the downside of the 6 Creed.

 

[Varminterror]

My buddy Jeff loves his GT. When he shoots his Dasher, which he also likes a lot, he enjoys the lack of muzzle jump, but in the end he likes the added FPS the GT brings without the downside of the 6 Creed.

That’s no joke - the extra speed does make targets bigger. There are windy matches where I’ll selectively take my 6 creeds instead of Dasher or 6 Grendel, only because it makes my targets almost twice as big as the BRA/Dasher or 6.5 guys.