Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)

I spoke with my nephew this afternoon about doing this with me and would his buddy who has a big property let us shoot there (Him and Sam are good buddies and Sam hunts there.). Sam called him and not only would he let us shoot there he said he had been meaning to make a 1000 yard range and this just helped get him going. So we will have a place to shoot out to 1K, which is all he has room for, but is 700 yards farther than I had this morning. :)
 
walkalong are you going to shoot the 1 day club matches in carbon hill, al?
 
I've heard that the T5XI had some quality issues shortly after introduction, but that they've pretty well mopped those up. From the reading I've done, I don't think I'd cancel the XRS II and switch just to save a few hundred $$.
They did have some initial issues. I have two of the 3-15s and both of mine have been great.
 
walkalong are you going to shoot the 1 day club matches in carbon hill, al?
That is the game plan, to start slow and try a one day match. Not sure when, gotta get it all in (Most due this week, rifle next Monday), get set up, zero, check the schedule(s).....but yes.
 
Cool. I’m planning to shoot them too if they don’t sell out
I shot a night match last weekend and had a blast.
 
And do some load work I assume.

As an old benchrester, @walkalong’s gonna be bored by how quick ammo work up for PRS can be. Really liberating to not need to spend time working to get below 1/2moa, especially with a 1,500rnd/barrel cartridge. Those long targets are big.
 
I’ve posted plenty of groups over the past ten years with my prs rifles. The only “work up” I do is trying to hit a target velocity so I don’t have to reprint my dope cards lol
 
The NRL just set guidelines I think for 2-3 moa targets shot from positional. Smaller for prone.
 
1 day club matches in carbon hill
The first one is the weekend I am going with my wife to Guntersville for "Eagle Awareness" She help Curt who runs "Rise Raptor Project". She is big into birds of prey, she volunteers at the local zoo in Education and handles the birds, and also volunteers at the Auburn raptor center.

She's fearless. Gotta go support her. ;)
 

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The first one is the weekend I am going with my wife to Guntersville for "Eagle Awareness" She help Curt who runs "Rise Raptor Project". She is big into birds of prey, she volunteers at the local zoo in Education and handles the birds, and also volunteers at the Auburn raptor center.

She's fearless. Gotta go support her. ;)

That is the coolest thing I've seen in a while!
 
As an old benchrester, @walkalong’s gonna be bored by how quick ammo work up for PRS can be. Really liberating to not need to spend time working to get below 1/2moa, especially with a 1,500rnd/barrel cartridge. Those long targets are big.

That might be what pushes me into PRS after spending hours loading for "Team Nature Boy" in preparation for an F Class match this weekend
 
Curt has been working for a couple of years (Paper work etc) to get an Eagle from Japan.
 

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The new NRL rule is <2moa for prone and supported shooting, <3moa for all other shooting. This is, of course, at the MD’s discretion, and is a guideline to ensure competitive matches. I doubt many ranges/matches/MD’s are going to throw out some of their big buffalo, hog, deer, or kangaroo targets. Complying on MOST stages is pretty easy, and mixing in various targets to give a more practical feel to a stage is nice for the shooter.

In general, I expect 1-3moa targets, but always expect to be frustrated by a really big target out at long range, and to be challenged by a 1/4-1/2moa target in short to mid range (350-600).

When you think about the targets available on the market, where they are used for stages starts to make sense. You’ll see squares, diamonds, 45%, 66%, and full size IPSC’s, head targets & hostages, poppers, and circles. Animal targets are common like cats, rabbits, prairie dogs, chickens, turkeys, coyotes, boar, deer, goats/rams, bison, and yes, even a kangaroo. Coyotes are typically 400-600yrds, prairie dogs are usually 300-500, full IPSC’s and big animals like boar/deer/bison are typically beyond 750.

TYL/KYL racks are usually between 400-800yrds and usually the smallest target will be sub-MOA.

The orientation of the targets in space also seems to make a big difference - whether in reality or just mentally. For example: Diamonds suck to shoot, squares tend to feel more generous. Coyotes/deer are deceivingly not forgiving, IPSC’s are usually generous. These seem big, but when you consider your errors and group sizes, the targets are a lot smaller than they seem, and their shapes aren’t very forgiving. Sometimes you can play a game in high winds where a wide target like a coyote pays off, but usually it’s a hindrance more than a help, because their legs and length make your mind think they are bigger than they are. Same with howling coyotes and prairie dogs - they are tall and skinny, so they look huge, but have little room for wind errors. Nobody messes up elevation/range correction, so a target really only needs to be tall enough to hold your raw group size from the shooting position, no accommodation for errors. In theory, I try to capitalize on wide targets because they allow a lot of wind error, but sometimes that doesn’t play out as planned.

Some I remember off of the top of my head (ballparking numbers here, most will be rather random numbers, not even 5 or 10yrd increment):

8x12” head at 370 + running coyote at 545, from rooftop

Prone 730yrds 12”, 10”, and 8” square

Standing from a railing (rear support was possible, but it wasn’t what I’d call a modified benchrest) 4 target TYL 440yrds, largest head was something like 6x8, smallest was a 2”x5” sliver (a hostage taker target, without the hostage).

Prone, prairie dog at 400, boar at 650, deer at 720, goat at 860, and kangaroo at 1020.

Prone cat at 400, rabbit at 450, coyote at 500, pig at 800.

Tire stack 8” target beside 6” target at 520, 3 positions on the tire stack, varying height between “too tall for prone,” “too tall for kneeling,” and “awkward height for standing.”
 
Can you use an adjustable shooting stick to support the butt end of your rifle?

In most stages/matches you could (in other words, unless an MD specifically says no rear support, and you’re willing to carry it, you can do it), but I believe most shooters would advise strongly against it. We talked a little in this thread about using a tripod in one of two ways as a rear support - if you want/need a rear support, and you train up to be fast with it, THAT is the way to do it. Tripod, not sticks.

Most of us don’t use a rear support very often except on REALLY wobbly obstacles. Another shooter coached me these words when I first started: “the more sh** you try to use, the more sh** you have to manage on the clock.” Everything you use has to be in your hands at the start signal, and all construction or position building has to happen on the clock. 3 extra seconds to build with a rear support on each position likely means 12-18seconds of lost time.
 
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Varmints advice is good most of the time but sometimes if you know you can’t get 10 good shots in a position in the time limit it’s better to spend half your time setting up rear support and get a few hits instead of trying to get lucky on ten shots
 
get a few hits instead of trying to get lucky on ten shots
Salvage something out of a tough stage vs crashing and burning?

The way I have it in my mind is to take my time and try to get hits, and if I run out of time and lose shots, well, so be it, work on speed once I get used to what is needed and get more comfortable with the basics.
 
Varmints advice is good most of the time but sometimes if you know you can’t get 10 good shots in a position in the time limit it’s better to spend half your time setting up rear support and get a few hits instead of trying to get lucky on ten shots

Salvage something out of a tough stage vs crashing and burning?

The way I have it in my mind is to take my time and try to get hits, and if I run out of time and lose shots, well, so be it, work on speed once I get used to what is needed and get more comfortable with the basics.

Misses are misses, but shots you don’t take are misses too. It’s a balancing act. Missing 6 targets in 50 seconds of a 90 second stage never makes sense. But a guy has to be REALLY fast to build 5+ positions with a front and rear support in 90 sec.

There ARE stages where taking 20 sec at the beginning to set up your support makes perfect sense, instead of spending an extra 5-10 seconds on each shot trying to wobble onto target. For example - shooting from chains or cargo nets, or wobble-windows/tic-Tac-toe boards (9 pane window frame shape on a center horizontal axis). In those stages, knowing how to use your rear support makes a huge difference - aka, 6 hits out of 8, instead of maybe 0-2 for a lot of guys. My first time with a wobble window, I got exceedingly lucky - I missed 4 shots at the top, had 3 positions left, dove prone with my Game Changer on the bottom panes and could just see the top of the target over the grassy crown of the range, still timed out with 2 in the mag from lost time. Picked up 4, dropped 6 on BIG targets. Second time I shot it, I used a rear support tripod, done in 90 seconds clean, on smaller targets.

At some matches which don’t prohibit it, guys will take 30 sec out of their stage to jam backpacks and stuff under boat simulators to stop them from swinging. Then they lay down prone on top and rip out 8-10rnds on target in under a minute and score very well. Lots of guys shoot them as designed and lose a few seconds extra on each shot trying to stabilize. I’ve never jammed one yet, but I’ll admit I am ready to do so if I ever shoot a boat simulator in big wind on smallish targets against a dirt berm if the MD doesn’t call foul (enough strategy modifiers in there for ya?). I can usually get on evenly enough to ride the wave well, but spotting impacts is a lot less reliable, and I want my feedback. In grass? Big IPSC’s at 600? Eh, screw jamming it, dive on hold still for 5-10sec, and send ‘em.

Alternatively, I saw a guy try to use a tripod rear support on a tire stage - Tac table style with his bipod on the tire. One big tire chest high on me, shoot 2 from center, 2 left, 2 center, 2 right, 2 center. The ground was just uneven enough, he couldn’t get situated fast enough or steady enough on target, he timed out with 4 or 5 left in the mag (I know he didn’t make it to his 4th position) and had missed 2 out of the 5-6 he fired - scored 3-4. I stuck my fortune cookie on its side, dropped the rifle on it like any barricade, got through all 10 shots in 5 positions in about 70 sec, missed two, completely my fault on bad trigger pulls, good for 8, without feeling rushed or frazzled or frustrated with my gear. He was a way better shooter, but he made a really bad choice for how to run that stage and I picked up a handful on one stage on him. By the time he wanted to bail on the Tac Table, he hadn’t started with a barricade bag in hand, and he was stuck with his choice.

And mind you - guys clamp the buttstock to one leg of the tripod a lot more often than they set the butt on the top (Tac Table), but I have never seen anyone using shooting sticks or a monopod for a rear support. Always a tripod. Way more stable, and you’re already hauling it.
 
I have read that targets are generally 2 to 4 MOA with some 1 MOA. What are y'alls experiences with the target sizes?

I forgot I had this picture, and I don’t recall overlaying those ranges. Here’s another example of what I would say is fairly representative of target sizes. That’s taken through my spotting scope, not sure which zoom exactly, but it’s a 20-60x, and the 3rd target is a full size IPSC with his tail hanging into the grass. So you can see how the targets are scaled similarly for their ranges - if the 1054 is an 18” wide IPSC, I’d say the 933 is a 14-16” Circle, and diamond/square is 14” corner to corner, or 10” square, and the Buffalo is roughly life sized at about 7ft long. This was the stage I mentioned up thread where two squads ahead of us had used the match book ranges instead of running LRF’s themselves, and all blanked the stage. So even though the targets are just under 2moa, the impacts in the 15mph full value winds weren’t free (we were steady 20-25mph winds that day, gusting 40’s). This was at a range here in Kansas, which is available to the public by appointment (not free, but reasonable).

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I now have everything I ordered except the rifle, which is scheduled to arrive Monday. The 34MM body looks fat compared to all the 1" and 30MM ones I have now. Clicks are decently firm to the touch and somewhat audible to my old ears. Not sure I'll be able to hear them with muffs.
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