long range rifle & scope recommendation

[flexible]

Hi looking for some advice; I have a S&W AR15 I use for plinking usually at 100 yards but I'm thinking of getting something for longer ranges - 300 to 400 yards.
Been thinking of either a Savage #12 Long Range or a Mossberg LR - both in 6.5 Creedmore.
does anyone have a preference?
Also I think I can afford a Nightforce scope - does that make sense?
thanks
flexible.

 

[Jim Watson]

Only 400 yards?
I would get a good bolt action .223 with enough twist for 75-80 grain boattails and have at it. I would keep my bolt gun brass and ammo separate from the auto's. Maybe even separate dies. Bart says full length size, but not by much.

Nightforce makes good scopes, but if you will be shooting from a steady position; bench, bipod, or even tight sling, I think a fixed 20-24X would be good. I seldom get my 8-25X variable out of that range and the low or even middle of a typical variable's zoom is of little use to the target shooter.

 

[flexible]

I live in NJ, not too many long ranges around, thanks for the advice.
flexible

 

[flexible]

Jim; I never thought of a 'bolt' 223/5.56 - any recommendations? sticking to one caliber would save a lot
flexible

 

[redneck2]

I have a Varminter AR. On prairie dog hunts we typically get first round hits at 300-350 yards with 50 and 64 grain bullets. Depends on the cross wind.

A 6.5 and Nightforce would certainly work, and if thats what you want, go for it. As noted, a fast twist .223 would be adequate. We use scopes set at somewhere around 12x

 

[Varminterror]

For 400yrds, a Savage 12 in 223rem will throw 75grn A-max's and 77grn SMK's very well. My wife and I both have 12 BVSS's in 223rem, despite the 1:9" twist, they both shoot incredibly well with the 75Amax and 77 SMK.

The 6.5 Creedmoor will cost more for brass, more for bullets, and more for powder, or a lot more for factory ammo, and at 400yrds and less, it won't offer any significant advantage for drop or drift. With the 223rem, you'll be able to call your own impacts much better than with a 6.5 Creedmoor also.

There are better scopes than Nightforce, but not many, and certainly not many at a better value. There are a lot worse scopes out there, for sure. You will not be sad in buying any Nightforce optic. The SHV F1's are a pretty good deal for a budget model, and I have always been happy with their NXS and BR scopes. Burris XTR's, Vortex Razor HD Gen II's, Nightforce BR/NXS/ATACR/Beast, Leupold Mark 4/6 & VX3/6, Bushnell Elite/Elite Tactical... these are all great scopes at moderate prices which can be very well implemented. If you're shooting variant ranges, an FFP is well worth the cost. Side Focus for parallax is well worth the cost in general over Adjustable Objectives, and you should not consider any fixed parallax scope for the application.

 

[jmr40]

The rifle you have is just fine for 300-400 yard if you're only shooting paper. You might need to upgrade optics. A bolt gun in 223 would give a bit better accuracy. The Ruger Predator would be my top pick. They are an 8 twist which is rare in bolt guns and will shoot the heavier target bullets. Most bolt guns are designed to work with 45-55 gr varmint bullets and shoot target bullets poorly.

Nothing wrong with the 6.5. It would be a better option for hunting big game or target work well beyond 400 yards.

 

[Chuck R.]

As the other guys said, for punching paper at out to 400 yards a .223 with the proper twist is more than adequate. I shoot my REM XCR Compact Tactical out to 500+ routinely (back yard range) out to 600 with 69 grain HPBTs. You'll save a bunch of money and get better doping wind to boot. My XCR wears a Luepold MK4 6.5-24X. Don't need that much magnification, but mine doubles as a muskrat/beaver eradication rifle, and the rats are pretty small targets when hanging on the waters edge.

Chuck

 

[farmerboy78]

The Savage long range precision is a 3/8 moa rifle with handloads... I shot 123gr amax and 43gr varget @ 2920. Low recoil, and will allow extended range shots when you ever get the chance. As far as optics I use vortex almost exclusively anymore. The vortex viper pst or a gen 1 razor are amazing, and their warranty beats any on the market.

 

[zb338]

Don't get another .223 you already have one. Get the gun you had the hots
for. Your choice is excellent.

Zeke

 

[Mn Fats]

If your only going out to 400 yds, why bother with nightforce? Don't get me wrong, they make excellent optics but to me it sounds like for a half or third of the price, luepold and even nikon will do you well for your intended use. A 12x maybe 14x is all you'll ever really need at 400 yards in my opinion. As far as caliber, reload and use whatever floats your boat or pick up another .223, youll be satisfied with what it can do out to 300-400 yds.

 

[captain awesome]

I would be interested to know what kind of long range shooting. Fixed targets at known ranges where there is no question or hunting or ranging with a reticle ect....
I have tried several scopes (never fired through a nightforce but have looked through them, nice optics), and spent countless hours researching anything I can find about rifle optics and which ones are better, their strengths and weaknesses and so on. I could probably write a book on it but i will spare you that much info, and only mention little from my personal hands on expirience. A general truth is the more you spend the better scope you get, but there are some that are a way better value than others. I Own or have owned a wide gamut of low price/ budget quality and very high end rifle optics, to give you an idea; Schmidt and Bender, and Steiner military, couple different Weaver super slams, Nikon monarch, Vortex HS LR, and razor hd gen1, sightron sIII, barska, mueler, millet, simmons, Redfield and probably a few others I am forgetting ..... and
I have no problem recommending the Steiner military line. That is my hands down favorite scope I own. Clearest glass I own for a mid range magnification rifle scope, easiest to look through, built like a tank and tracks accurately and perfectly, Milradian adjustments with mil hash marks on the reticle, first focal plane, turrets are very possitive with crisp clicks, setable zero, they did everything right on that scope. The one I own is a 3 -12, military tactical....i believe mine is out of production but if you can Find one it's the best thing for less than 2k $ out there, and IMO is every bit as good as the 3k$+ scopes I have messed with. 12x with great glass can get you a lot farther than 20x or 25x with not so good glass. I can say good things about some of the others, Schmidt and Bender is also sweet, but that Steiner....what a deal. I would do it again and again.
I have no doubts you would be happy with a Nightforce, I have just never saw fit to get one over other offerings from different makers.

As far as the rifle I have a Savage 12 in 22-250 and that rifle is quite a tac driver. A Savage 12 in 6.5 cm is on my short list.

 

[Bart B.]

I do not know why the demand for semiauto military style rifles have become the rage for most recreational shooting. Some no doubt is because there's a lot of wanna-be's out there. Others are like the "valley girls" in San Fernando, CA, in the 1970's wherein every fourth word they spoke was "like" and every 14th pair of words was "fur sure" and if you didn't talk that way, your were an outcast. (It's still is, 'like' with us over 50 years later; 'fur sure.'). It's called "valleyspeak," a well documented cultural behavior. I think "AR-phobia" is popular. Not a bad behavior, just a different one.

If accuracy is your first objective, bolt actions have no equal. Bolt action 22 caliber centerfire rifles were notorious against small game through 400 yards for decades until the Viet Nam era came upon us. Then, if by magic, their popularity glided down eventually taking a nose dive. 99% of the walls in so many shop look like a military small arms locker full of service rifles for combat only. If you feel a need for that, go for it. Your decide (willingly or otherwise) if the compromises compared to bolt action rifles is worth it.

If your bolt rifle's bolt face is squared up with the chamber axis, empties from it resized will shoot more accurate in your AR.

There are several $300 to $400 scopes out there that are more than adequate than those costing four times that much. Do you really think you can discern the 1/10th MOA repeatability or 4 arc seconds (that's 1/15th MOA) resolution difference in image quality they may have over one costing three billfolds full of bucks more? I've yet to learn of a rifle and its ammo that shoots groups smaller than the size on target the reticle wire subtends; or the size of a 1//8 MOA dot some scopes have. Spend most of your money on the rifle and ammo quality.

 

[horsey300]

Hi looking for some advice; I have a S&W AR15 I use for plinking usually at 100 yards but I'm thinking of getting something for longer ranges - 300 to 400 yards.
Been thinking of either a Savage #12 Long Range or a Mossberg LR - both in 6.5 Creedmore.
does anyone have a preference?
Also I think I can afford a Nightforce scope - does that make sense?
thanks
flexible.

This is need vs want really. 400 yds is still plenty doable for a .223. In a bolt action you'll be fine. Someone mentioned the ruger 1:8 twist, that's a decent place to start. If you want to get a more powerful cartridge, you may have your reasons, but for just plinking you're in the want side of it and more power to you!

 

[Bart B.]

The Savage long range precision is a 3/8 moa rifle with handloads...

Some clarification, please.

Is that the largest, average of several or smallest group in that claim? What range? How many shots?

I ask because I don't think the best match grade bullets from Berger and Sierra shoot that well past 200 yards in their test barrels. Any rifle can do that once with a few shots using any ammo at any range, if shot enough.

Record holding benchrest rifles haven't done that well past 200 yards.

With center fire rifles, long range traditionally means at least 600 yards. Mid range from 300 to 600, short range up to 300 yards.

All that aside, that rifle may well be the most accurate commercial factory rifle available if the barrel was fluted before it was rifled. You need to ensure all your magazines "shoot" to point of aim.

 

[flexible]

thanks everyone; some very helpful suggestions, now I have more homework to do LOL!
thanks again to all.

flexible

 

[salt&battery]

well you do not need a 6.5 creed or a nightforce scope for 400 yd target work. if you wanted to hunt also then the creed would be excellent. a ruger American 223 with 1x8 twist you can shoot 80 gr A Max well past 600 yds. with a 200-300 scope you will have plenty of money left over for ammo and reloading setup if you do not have it already

 

[BrocLuno]

I agree on staying with 223. If you are going for a whole new caliber, I'd get something in 308 that will hunt/shoot other things than your 223's will... There are very good match grade loads out there for 223 that will shoot 0.5 MOA right out of the box while you build a good brass supply

In 223, I'd go Tikka T3 Varmint. Here's a discussion of same on another board: http://www.tikkashooters.com/public_html/general-discussion/tikka-t3-varmint-223-accuracy/ It's generally perceived to be a sub 0.5 MOA rifle with the right ammo. Since you may handload, it may go down to 0.2" at 100 yds. That is, it's better than the shooter 95% of the time. A rifle that you can trust to be your companion in progressing in shooting up to competitive levels

The factory blurb: http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3/t3-super-varmint

Notice that it's railed. So any scope you want in most any mount you want. Once you start finding really long ranges (400 yds +), you can get 10 and 20 MOA elevated mounts that bolt right on. That extends your useful scope adjustment capability quite a ways

IF you stay 223, I'd look at Leupold VX-R 4x12-40. https://www.leupold.com/reticles/firedot-wind-plex/

It has a fire dot for close-in work. And can be turned off for range work. It has a wind-hold reticle. Although you can get other custom reticle's from Leupold for your chosen round with bullet drop. That means chrono'ing your best round and sending them the data. They will build a reticle for that round if you want. All it costs is money and time.

The 4x12 is a very useful all around scope. The 40mm bell means it can be fairly close to the bore so your point blank range will be good to prolly 250 yds once sighted.

But, if you will be working more at dawn and dusk, maybe a 4x12-50... This one has a bullet drop dial available so you dial-in you drop per your range and go from there.

Either way, the VX-R line is competitive with Nightforce and maybe has better glass/coatings for some situations... I'm not knocking Nightforce. I'm saying be careful with your budget. Buy a good scope. Go shoot. Learn what you want to change, THEN, go buy that scope and sell your starter. If it's a Leupold, you'll get 90% of your money back easy

 

[Jackal]

When I hear "long range" I think of 600+ yards. Out to 500, a fast .22 works great.

 

[BrocLuno]

Agreed, but he's starting at 100 ...

 

[RugerBassMan]

To me long range means 600 to 1000 and the 6.5 Creedmore will certainly do this. I have a 6.5X47 Lapua and a 6.5-06 both with 1-8 twists and both work just fine. My suggestions would be to get a 30mm tube scope of at least 14X and parallax adjustable. The 30mm tube will allow a greater range of adjustment and with a 20 MOA base that raises the back of the scope up enough, adjustments can be made to get the center of the reticle on at 1000 and over. Nightforce scopes are 1st rate but pricy. I use the much less pricy SWFA 12X42 MOA Quad scopes but often wish for more magnification. I also have a Leupold 6.5-20X50 30mm, Leupold 4.5-14X40 M4 30mm and a Weaver T24 (24X40) 1 inch. A Nightforce sure does make sense !

With the .223 I have found that a 1-9 will not reliably stabilize 75 Amax's but will do just fine with 68, 75 Hornady hollow point match bullets. Some AR type .223's come with 1-7 twists. I have seen some good scores fired at 500 yards (reduced 600 yard target) with the little .223 using 77 Sierra's. When measuring bullet length to determine twist rates the plastic tip of the bullet is not measured to get a gyroscope stability value. My 1-9 twist .22-.250 did not do very well with 75 Amax's when temps were near freezing and measuring the twist rate showed it was a little more than 9, like 9.33.

The Weaver T24 is a fine scope within its limitations being a tiny exit pupil of 1.7 mm but it has good glass and accurate tracking (click adjustments) and a wide range of adjustments. After sighting in at 100, if the scope can be adjusted to make bullet holes 3 feet high than the 100 yard group. It should work at 1000.

Should you be interested in pursuing this further go on-line and take a look at the Hornady 4 degrees of Freedom Ballistic calculator with your new 6.5 Creedmore in mind. Being a spectator at any long range match is also helpful.

 

[salt&battery]

To me long range means 600 to 1000 and the 6.5 Creedmore will certainly do this. I have a 6.5X47 Lapua and a 6.5-06 both with 1-8 twists and both work just fine. My suggestions would be to get a 30mm tube scope of at least 14X and parallax adjustable. The 30mm tube will allow a greater range of adjustment and with a 20 MOA base that raises the back of the scope up enough, adjustments can be made to get the center of the reticle on at 1000 and over. Nightforce scopes are 1st rate but pricy. I use the much less pricy SWFA 12X42 MOA Quad scopes but often wish for more magnification. I also have a Leupold 6.5-20X50 30mm, Leupold 4.5-14X40 M4 30mm and a Weaver T24 (24X40) 1 inch. A Nightforce sure does make sense !

With the .223 I have found that a 1-9 will not reliably stabilize 75 Amax's but will do just fine with 68, 75 Hornady hollow point match bullets. Some AR type .223's come with 1-7 twists. I have seen some good scores fired at 500 yards (reduced 600 yard target) with the little .223 using 77 Sierra's. When measuring bullet length to determine twist rates the plastic tip of the bullet is not measured to get a gyroscope stability value. My 1-9 twist .22-.250 did not do very well with 75 Amax's when temps were near freezing and measuring the twist rate showed it was a little more than 9, like 9.33.

The Weaver T24 is a fine scope within its limitations being a tiny exit pupil of 1.7 mm but it has good glass and accurate tracking (click adjustments) and a wide range of adjustments. After sighting in at 100, if the scope can be adjusted to make bullet holes 3 feet high than the 100 yard group. It should work at 1000.

Should you be interested in pursuing this further go on-line and take a look at the Hornady 4 degrees of Freedom Ballistic calculator with your new 6.5 Creedmore in mind. Being a spectator at any long range match is also helpful.

I am positive SWFA makes a fixed 16X also

 

[RugerBassMan]

Yes they sure do - the 16X gets you a little closer but at the cost of not being as bright when the light is not as good. Should I get another SWFA it will probably be a 16X used for shooting rodents on bright hot days.

 

[Nature Boy]

I've been seeing some great deals on Leupold Mk 4 scopes as they are phasing them out for newer models

 

[farmerboy78]

Some clarification, please.

Is that the largest, average of several or smallest group in that claim? What range? How many shots?

I ask because I don't think the best match grade bullets from Berger and Sierra shoot that well past 200 yards in their test barrels. Any rifle can do that once with a few shots using any ammo at any range, if shot enough.

Record holding benchrest rifles haven't done that well past 200 yards.

With center fire rifles, long range traditionally means at least 600 yards. Mid range from 300 to 600, short range up to 300 yards.

All that aside, that rifle may well be the most accurate commercial factory rifle available if the barrel was fluted before it was rifled. You need to ensure all your magazines "shoot" to point of aim.

It was the average grouping... largest group I saw was 1/2" @ 100 yds.