Long Range Threads

[wankerjake]

We had multiple DAYS of seeing not 20-40 deer, but 100-200 (per DAY, not throughout season) deer this past year. Once the colder weather hit, I had days of seeing over 500 deer within a half hour of driving past winter wheat fields.

This is what we're talking about. It's so easy to say "oh, you don't have to take long shots, that's BS etc" when you see that many deer a day. Even in open country you will have so many opportunities to stalk because you see deer every time you turn around. IT IS NOT LIKE THAT OUT HERE. How is this not understood? I haven't seen 500 muleys in the last 5 years put together, between hunting, scouting, hiking, driving etc.

If my choices are between a marginal shot i "might" make, or no shot at all

And here is the other misconception. The range a shot becomes marginal depends on the skill of the shooter. 400 yards is an impossible shot for some. For those who practice it's not marginal at all. If you guys actually had to adapt to shoot far you would, or you would go hungry more often than not. For deer, in the areas I hunt, I have to. Now if I have a buck at say 450 yards and there is a reasonable chance I can pull a sneak and cut that distance in half without the deer seeing me I'll try. If I can't, that's why I practice for a long shot. The deer aren't stupid out here. They don't have 80 other deer around to watch for them, it's up to them to see danger coming. They get in spots where they can see, and they set there most of the day unless they are spooked out. Ha ha, you guys who have never hunted Coues deer have no clue.

The way I hunt elk is a totally different story. My max range on my elk rifle is 250 yards, that's what I practice to and that's how closer I need to get. I hunt thicker cover and landscape that is conducive to pulling sneaks. It helps that there are a lot of elk, and usually I'm hunting antlerless elk. So yeah, I've "passed up" dozens of elk at 300 yards or more because they are out of range and I'll have more opportunities. Either I get closer, or go find more elk. I have filled every elk tag I've ever had. If that's all I did, I could sit behind my computer screen and call people bad hunters for not getting closer because I'd be ignorant to how things may be different elsewhere.

I would truly love all you guys who think shooting past 300 yards isn't hunting to come buy tags. We'll all camp out, and you guys can see what I mean. My guess is that you would be mad you wasted a trip to AZ because we "don't have any deer." We do have them, but you have to hunt them.

 

[Hangingrock]

Some perspective my deer hunting experiences are limited to Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia, and North Carolina. Of those states mentioned the experience is limited to the sections of those states that I placed boot prints (Size 12) on the ground.

With that said yes I have my opinions based on my experiences. What I don’t have is the experience of hunting in as an example Arizona or (Texas where minute of “Beer Can” accuracy applies). A man has to know his limitations. As I’ve said previously the ground you’re on determines the hunt.

 

[suzukisam]

I love the 7mm rem mag. my old man has a couple, a weatherby and a savage. I would say it is the best long range cartridge available. The second I believe is 243 win. I just had a sweet stainless barreled AR 243 built. it's crazy accurate, and will consistently shoot 1/2 moa. but it's pretty bulky for long hiking. it's a friggin sniper rifle out of my stand though.

I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with john burns. I think he was the original guy from the best of the west. anyway he has a set of technical dvds, And I mean technical. most people I have showed them to just get lost as soon as he tries to explain wind drift and center of mass verses center of pressure. but he has a portion of the set that is based on ethics. he says you should practice to make your shots at a given distance from a bench, and when you can do that every time without fail move to targets in the field in real life situations. When again you can hit these without fail, then your ready for varmint hunting. Then you should practice on non game animals(prairie dogs, yotes...ect). and again when you have mastered this you move to antlerless game, then on to trophy game.. this process takes years. and anyone who tries to run to the head of the line, is only going to have a potential to wound game and ruin their own hunting experience!

Now if you think about it isn't this the same process for any hunting? thnk about it is this not exactly what we with our children? we get them a bb gun,usually before they can even shoot one out of our own excitement. and when they have mastered killing tin can we get a small 22. then practice on paper. when they have developed the marksmanship to kill a varmint, we go squirrel hunting. it is years before they pick up a rifle and set in a deer stand.

anyone who just picks up a rifle and heads into the field all willy-nilly is a problem. and honestly no one in this thread is condoning such behavior. Some people lack the skills to make a shot at many distances and wound aniimals, they also road hunt, sneak on others land, poach, shoot turkeys with deer rifles(not legal here).. these sorts of people should not be allowed to form your opinion on any type of hunting. They don't play by the rules and they are dangerous. again none of us like this mentality!

 

[Art Eatman]

"Minute of beer can"? That's not likely to put meat on the table in the areas in Texas where I've hunted during these last 40-some years.

I've had mule deer seasons where the only shootable buck was out around 400 yards or so. If a fella hasn't trained to be able to make that shot, he better hunt the meat counter in the Safeway.

 

[pat86323]

Ok im done, you guys dont want to understand so im no longer going to try to explain. If you are ever serious about wanting to know "why long shots" put in for a unit 20a mule deer tag in arizona. Heres my opinion, if spot and stalk ending with potential of a long shot isnt sporting, i would argue that sitting in a blind watching a well travelled trail is even less sporting. You ambush hunters make me sick with how unsporting that is. Even worse yet is those of you that sit on food plots or feeders. For crying out loud you feed them to their death......

I dont really believe all of that, but this is what you sound like......anti hunters. If i was in an area where i could sit a path i would. When its phrased like that it does make sitting in a blind ambush hunting sound pretty unsporting. I have no real perspective on where you guys hunt, or the strategies nessisary to be successful wherever they might be. In the same way, you have no idea where I hunt. Please stop acting like members of the HSUS and saying everything is unsporting and cruel. Its ridiculous and stupid. If 100 yard shooting is all that is needed i argue that nation wide we go to just shotgun and archery. Theres no reason to have that fancy 30-06, all that the rifle does is tempt people to make questionable shots with its long range capabilities.

 

[MtnCreek]

There's some guys not to far from here that decided to 'go native' (my words) and hunt with speers. If that's your thing, go for it!

I've seen some people with enough gagets handing off them that they look like they're about to climb into the space shuttle. Once again; if that's what you want to do....

Now there's those (insert bad word here) that ride around in their truck, drinking beer all day hopeing to see something from the road. Those people piss me off !!!

 

[X-Rap]

You summed it up well pat, there are bad shots and bad sports in every disipline but for some reason the distance subject seems to bring out the worst in some folks. Snobs, slobs or crooks are the ones we need to be after and they come in all types.

 

[Hangingrock]

he better hunt the meat counter in the Safeway.

We have Lowes and Food Lion here and it maybe cheaper to buy at the meat counter than hunt all things considered.

This subject has become way to serious

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

no really I believe you, after blowing a leg clear off, they run through the forest and continue to live! it happens all the time!

I've seen a three legged deer live for a long time, and have fawns, too. Anything else you wish to share?

 

[35 Whelen]

Somebody summed it up well a few posts back...just because a 450 yd. shot is your only shot of the season, that doesn't mean you have to take it!
Case in point: Elk season 2009, this is a shot I was presented:



Exactly 514 yds. away. The picture doesn't do justice. The bull on the right would have been the biggest bull I've ever killed or even seen in the wild. Elk season comes once a year, IF we get drawn and IF we get bull tags. We drive 500+ miles, tend to horses and mules, endure the cold, etc. The temptation was great, and I probably would have hit him. But I've hunted the surrounding timber and knew if he made it in there, I'd probably never find him. So, I decided to not shoot and instead took pictures and enjoyed the view. Less than 1 hour later I was rewarded with a shot at a huge....4x4...and was relieved that I hadn't shot at the 6x6.
Point is, it doesn't hurt to say no to long shots.

35W

 

[suzukisam]

yeah I would like to share the fact that you went from "scourges" of them to "I saw one once"... so how many is in a scourge? This is getting dumb.. you guys have kicked this dead horse to death. no one says that you HAVE to take any shot. we are saying you shouldn't if you reliably can't make the kill. and so you saw a three legged deer did you see it get shot from 1000000000000yrds away? If so did you report it to the game warden, and persue the deer to ease it's suffering? I bet you have no idea, if you saw it give birth. Did some idiot with a twelve ga out bird hunting do it, or a trapper, or maybe even a natural accident, or maybe a person at ten yrds that wasn't even capable of a ten yrd shot.. this thread is so full of assumptions and reading comprehension issues it's dumb. So if everyone here is against taking any shot you can't take, having proved it with practice are you still against taking clean ethical shots? what about john burns he consistently makes 600-1000 yrd shots with drt game. is he unethical? and that 514 yrd shot may have been no biggie for some. I could probably made it on paper, but I too would have passed it up in the field.

THE KEY TO ALL THIS IS KNOWING YOUR OWN LIMITS FOR A CLEAN KILL

 

[wankerjake]

Absolutely it doesn't hurt to not take long shots. especially if you are unsure if you can make it. There is no way I would attempt that shot with my elk rifle, I'm just not set up for it. I can do 250 yards and that's what I can do. I would have passed that shot up every day of the hunt, because I can't make the shot.

But if a guy practices and is presented a shot in a range he is comfortable shooting, and he hunted all season and had a shot like that and knew he could make it...why shouldn't he?

 

[suzukisam]

But if a guy practices and is presented a shot in a range he is comfortable shooting, and he hunted all season and had a shot like that and knew he could make it...why shouldn't he?

cause there are three legged deer:banghead:

 

[35 Whelen]

what about john burns he consistently makes 600-1000 yrd shots with drt game. is he unethical? and that 514 yrd shot may have been no biggie for some. I could probably made it on paper, but I too would have passed it up in the field.

You guys are missing the point. It wasn't about whether or not I could MAKE the shot, it was about whether or not it was WISE to take the shot. Like I said, I've hunted the surrounding timber and it's thick. Also another very important element to consider: the wind.
The wind was blowing...right to left as I recall. You might notice that the bulls are in an area that is shielded from the wind. Where I was sitting I was shielded from the wind. But there was an open area probably 300 yds. wide across the basin where the bullet would have been subject to the forces of the wind. So, we have the first 100 or so yards that the bullet is unaffected by the wind, then 300 or so where the bullet is subjected to the forces of the wind, then the last 200 or so with no wind. Anyone wanna guess how to hold to allow for the wind? Hurry...the bulls are feeding toward the timber...
Of course John Burns consistently makes 600-1000 yd. shots...for his DVD's...after all, who wants to buy DVD's where the hunter misses?

I'm telling you from experience in shooting my 600 yd. range here at the house. Conditions have to be perfect for the shot to be easy. And that's even when I know the exact range...but the slightest change in wind direction or velocity plays hell even with a good, aerodynamic target bullet.
If a hunter is totally prepared and possess the skill to shoot at long range if such a shot presents itself, then fine. Have at it. But I loathe people who seek to kill animals at long range just for the thrill of it and for bragging rights. You know, those "hunters" who wouldn't shoot at a 300 yd. deer because it's "too close"?
35W

 

[suzukisam]

Of course John Burns consistently makes 600-1000 yd. shots...for his DVD's...after all, who wants to buy DVD's where the hunter misses?

I will not say he never misses or there isn't any instances where a shot went wrong. you could very well be right about that(I assume this is what you are implying). But with the skill and precision that his shots are made with(the ones we see) you can assume that he can do it with precision.. if you have never seen any of his teaching based dvds you should really look at them before you make a judgement. I would guess his ethics are very similar to you own.. he is a very ethical man. or pretends very well to be one. The dvds I speak of are not for "show" they are technical instruction. not to say they have no entertainment value.

I'm telling you from experience in shooting my 600 yd. range here at the house. Conditions have to be perfect for the shot to be easy. And that's even when I know the exact range...but the slightest change in wind direction or velocity plays hell even with a good, aerodynamic target bullet.
If a hunter is totally prepared and possess the skill to shoot at long range if such a shot presents itself, then fine.

agreed

But I loathe people who seek to kill animals at long range just for the thrill of it and for bragging rights. You know, those "hunters" who wouldn't shoot at a 300 yd. deer because it's "too close"?
35W

I can honestly say I have never met this sort of person. "braggin" can be interpreted two ways... I spend lot of time practicing and when I have the skills to anchor one to the ground at 500yrds I will be proud that with the dedication I have put into it I accomplished my goal. if that is the case than bragging is in order, because anyone who works for a goal and accomplishes it has the right to brag. as far as the type of hunters you mentioned, I have not met any of those, but I have met many of the other less savory types, so I will take your word you have met those. but I like to assume the other THR's are not any of those!

 

[Steel Talon]

FWIW

Wankerjack, is dead on. I hunt the same general area as he. What allot of people also do not realise is the average size of a Couse deer is about the same size and build as a Great Dane. They are not the Beefy bean field whitetails that get TV and magazine time.

The same type of distances and terrain exist here for our Desert Mule Deer. So the hunter who hunts this type of terrain needs to or should least Garner some experience in shooting beyond 300/400 yards. And having a spotter/helper is critical. Doping the wacky wind in our desert terrain is a MUTHA.

 

[Steel Talon]

About the only thing in az that i can think of thats easy to hunt is javalina, those things are a little "slow", but they are only easy if you can find em. Start putting in for tags or get a bow and get ready to be very very frustrated and come on out. Theres public land everywhere and more game then you think.

Yes the little rocks that move in the tall grass... Use a varmint call and get em fired up..They can come in like a SWAT team snapping and woofin' esp.if they got reds. Cant tell you the times I found myself in the middle of a herd and didn't realize it.

 

[daorhgih]

Here come the bliss-ninnies.

Every man here is here to learn and to teach. But NOT ethics and morals about killing and eating vertebrate animals. My coffee is not your tea. I'm impressed MUCH by the skills I see here, and hear, and I try to emulate some of them. But if you want to really impress me, stow your long-gun, hang up your trick bows, and take this here Bowie knife and bring us all dinner. THEN, you da' man. Comanche-style.

 

[Art Eatman]

Okay, enough for this iteration of this subject. Rest assured, it will come up again when somebody else begins a new thread on this subject.

A think point: In threads of this sort, there's a lot of, "My way is THE way," and, "My limits in skill should be everybody's limits." All that just ain't righteous...