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Looks like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Eric F, Aug 10, 2008.

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  1. Eric F

    Eric F Member

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    I notice people say this just about every time a new round gets developed. Why?

    Is it not ok to design some thing just to do it? In the ammunition world there is nothing left. Its all been done and every thing else is just rehashing something else.

    This applies especially to the world of wild cat rounds.
     
  2. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Not true, there is always something new and differant to work at. Besides, I am sure it's fun.
     
  3. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    It is a term most often used by people who are stuck in their ways or adverse to change. While there are some isolated times that the statement is true, more often than not it is about something that people just don't want to bother with.

    The recent thread in Handguns about the .40 is a good instance of this. A number of people have made the statement or similar statement about it being a solution without a problem. Well we all know it is just a new round like any other.

    There will always be people who don't like or want change. And this statement tends to be their battle cry.
     
  4. Low-Sci

    Low-Sci Member

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    Maybe if folks would stop seeing innovations as an attempt to fix problems, and start seeing them as ways to potentially improve upon what already works, you'd hear that a lot less.

    There's really nothing out there that's so perfect that it couldn't stand a tweak here and there just to see if it can't be improved.
     
  5. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    That pretty much takes care of it I'd say :)

    No other reason needed.
     
  6. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    In some cases, at least, it is because the new offering offers identical or very similar ballistics to older, more established cartridges (e.g., .45 GAP, Winchester short magnums).
     
  7. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    If the new round really is innovative, even if it duplicates an existing round ballistically, it is interesting. But if the only obvious purpose is to give the gunzines something to write about and make a few bucks on the infantile hype, what is the point?

    Jim
     
  8. davepool

    davepool Member

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    I've read this stuff about the FNH 5.7 pistol i just bought...same ballistics as .22magnum,blah blah,blah...but how many .22 magnums do you know of with a 20 rnd mag capcity? it is a fun gun to shoot! Took it out to Ben Avery for the first time today, accurate little sucker
     
  9. woodfiend

    woodfiend Member

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    Let me ask you this, can a .22 magnum shoot through a kevlar vest? New rounds may bridge the gap between performance and capacity.
     
  10. Deer Hunter

    Deer Hunter Member

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    No, but a 7.62x25 can.

    :)
     
  11. The Tourist

    The Tourist member

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    It's like inventing new lures. You might not catch fish, but you catch fishermen--and their wallets.

    When the "new" 10mm first came out, the older guys wondered what exactly was 'new' about it. It's a 38-40. It's a .401 Power-Mag. It's a .41 AE.

    But to a guy in his thirties with a wallet, the 10mm was the cutting edge.

    Any new .22 centerfires out there? I mean ones that can drive a bullet faster than a 220 Swift or a 22-250 without blowing the bullet up or key-holing?

    If I put a .375 Magnum and .350 Rem Mag together, could you tell them apart at first glance?

    How about the 7.62x39mm style rifle, that broke some ground. Not really, I saw a picture of a lever action rifle modified to fire automatically. The mechanism is about 100 years old.

    So is a 22 WSSM better than a 22-250? Are there actual improvements in the 25 WSSM that can not be found in the 250-3000?

    I don't think so, not really. It's a chunk of lead at a certain size at a certain speed. Just the name changes.
     
  12. ilcylic

    ilcylic Member

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    Yeah, I think it's BS, I have new problems every day. :D

    I play around with cartridge design all the time, just as mental exercise. Why not, it's fun to think about. Might be a cure looking for a disease, but heck, it's fun. And who knows, you might come up with something really sweet.

    Of course, I'm one of those 10mm idjits... ;)
     
  13. 461

    461 Member

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    The .327 Federal magnum is suffering this persecution a lot lately. I for one am excited about it as a longtime .32 enthusiast. Folks seem to get the idea that it's gunning for the .357 Magnum as "King of the Hill" but I'm not even looking at that. To my mind it is a straight walled 32-20 and that is a clear cut improvement to the reloader, same performance with longer case life and carbide dies. What's not to love? I think the marketing model they are using is wrong but I've long ago learned to look past marketing hype.

    The enthusiast is a different animal than the average gun owner, we like new stuff just to have new stuff, but the average Joe fights change and sticks with what works for them. Your average hunter or competitive shooter isn't necessarily a gun nut or reloader. Different strokes for different folks.
     
  14. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN Marines raising the left-leaning Pisa tower.

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    My problem is not with the innovation involved in new cartridges, but rather whether or not ammo will still be available in ten or twenty years.

    Just as an example, I thought the .22 Jet was the cat's meow when it first came out --what with chamber inserts for .22 LR, and the super velocities of the Jet round. But I held off buying one the same way I would hold off buying a new model of car.

    Sho' 'nuff, it was dead as a doornail in only about three years... now, admittedly, it was because of the insoluble problem of cases backing out to the breech face and locking up the revolvers for which it was chambered, but still, it was a "solution" that became its own problem.

    I love the ballistics and quietness of the new .17 rimfires, but I won't touch one for at least two more years... and even then, I'll check ammo availability before I line the pockets of marketing geniuses.

    I was thinking a couple of years ago that my close-to-ideal defensive carry weapon would be something in .32 H & R Magnum in a 3" 5-shot revolver proportioned to the cartridge, but then found ammo was hard to find.

    I see now they have the Federal version of my close-to-ideal Magnum .32 cartridge.

    I can wait. It's a solution, but let's see if the market says so, too.
     
  15. gallo

    gallo Member

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    I'm a classic on the 9mm side. The 40 SW, although it has proven itself plenty to be considered the new kid on the block, simply does not appeal much to me. Is it a solution to a problem that didn't exist? A lot of LEOs swear by the caliber.

    That type of comments come from people fixed in on their caliber choice.
     
  16. LightningJoe

    LightningJoe Member

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    Because it's generally true. We've had all the cartridges we needed since the beginning of the 20th century. All the guns we needed since the 60s.


    Still, innovation goes on. Not a bad thing. Just a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
     
  17. Raystonn

    Raystonn Member

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    I would disagree with you. The .357 Magnum is the king of one-shot stops. It beats out the .45 ACP, and anything else in the handgun category; that is until the .357 Sig round was invented. The .357 Sig very slightly edges out the .357 Magnum at common grains, and finally makes this stopping power, commonly referred to as the lightning bolt effect, available in a semi-automatic that holds many more rounds than a revolver ever will.

    I'd hardly call the .357 Sig a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

    -Raystonn
     
  18. lysander

    lysander Member

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    Perhaps because at the subconscious level, we all have a natural resistance to the modern manufacturing notion of "planned obsolescence", and the modern marketing notion of "perceived obsolescence." :neener:

    That isn't to say that there are not tech revolutions, but much of it is puffery and smokescreens.
     
  19. jason10mm

    jason10mm Member

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    Have you guys seen those all enclosed experimental rounds in one of the latest American Rifleman mags? Looked like the cases were plastic or something. Supposed to be lighter than conventional rounds of the same caliber and performance.

    THAT to me is a worthy innovation. Of course I am not sure if those rounds are re-loadable, so while the military might like it, I don't see it catching on with the general population.

    I think the round needs to follow the market. If someone could develop a killer compact handgun round (.45GAP, .327 mag for example) for a new market, that makes sense. But creating a round and then trying to make a demand for it is a bit more of a challenge.

    We had a nice cartridge revolution with smokeless powder as the old rounds fell away and new ones came in. Barring a similar evolution/revolution in technology, I'm not sure there is a niche that has not been adequately explored.

    The man-killer market seems to be in flux with the 6.8, but otherwise I don't see much else.
     
  20. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    I think some new cartridges actually address a true need, like the .416 Barrett. :)

    Some are attempts to sell into a perceived niche market, like the .22 reed express.

    Some are just people tinkering and coming up with something new and nifty. The .50 Beowulf comes to mind.

    Then there are those trying to sell something like the .327 federal magnum/SP101. This is clearly a case of trying to create a market for something that doesn't really exist. Only time will tell if it is worthwhile.

    IMO, in the end, the true worth of a cartridge is whether anyone shoots it.
     
  21. rantingredneck

    rantingredneck Member

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    At a certain point, it's all been done before. Barring a major leap in technology as the previous poster mentioned.

    Polymer frames on semi autos were a major step forward. Will polymers be used in any other way. (Will we finally get that Glock 7 that John Mclane made such a big fuss over?? :D)

    Smaller handguns for CCW. Larger rounds/handguns for hunting/field use. Both of those seem to have reached their limits.
     
  22. The Tourist

    The Tourist member

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    A comedienne was doing a spoof on Paris Hilton in 2001. She talked about clothes and slang, and then commented, "Oh, that's so-o-o-o last century!"

    People liked the 10mm because it was new, so it had a following. Limited amounts of bullets, no brass and only one pistol to shoot them in--if you could find the gun and pray for the magazines.

    Meanwhile, thousands of 38-40s languished on shelves.

    This is one thing about collecting (anything) that troubles me. We will buy, sell, trade or believe anything if a saleman says that magic word "new."

    We will dump a perfectly good commodity when a celebrity wrinkles their nose.

    If P Diddy hit Entertainment Tonight and proffered that all of his posse has switched over to the new 11.5 millimeter Sri Lankan Titanium Express, thousands of guys would be trading off their Colt Elites.

    Edit: This is not to denigrate the 11.5 and the standard factory load. I've only had mine one month, and obviously have only shot it a few times because reloading components are slim. I think it will become a good defense round once the hollowpoint issue is settled.
     
  23. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Two Words


    30 TC

    now someone give me a compelling reason why?

    It's one thing to develope a cartridge like 270wsm, 500/460mag or 40S&W to fill an unused niche. But it's quite another to develop a cartridge that's a fourth or fifth generation copycat.

    7.65x53 mauser / 30-06/ 300savage / 308win and now 30tc:rolleyes:
     
  24. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    New cartridges can offer solutions to bolt-reciever ratios, action lengths, size problems, and internal storage problems.

    Think Leverevolution. The pointblank range is extended about another 100 yards, a significant improvement for the old lever action. Great for deer hunting. It puts the Winchester/Marlin hunter back in the field in areas he may have felt only a bolt action would do.

    With the huge popularity of the Ruger LCP, I expect an improved .380 is now percolating to the top of ammo maker's hot list. And it will become the defacto preferred SD round - until the competition catches up.

    As for the new Army ammo, I don't think the plastic telescoped rounds will even survive to fielding. The end game is to develop a completely caseless ammo. A 45% weight reduction and no expensive brass to form is the whole point.

    The only disadvantage is that it may remain an exclusive military item - which would tightly control the sale of any resulting "sporter" arms with the required chamber designs. On the other hand, black powder shooters are just one step away with sabot rounds and pellets stacked on a sprue. With a primer holding, sealing case head, you could have semi caseless centerfire ammo to shoot in a conventional firearm.

    The problems have existed for 150 years, it's about finding better solutions.
     
  25. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    .


    I really hope so, The current crop of locked breach pocket pistols are just begging for a high pressure version of 32/380ACP
     
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