Loss of faith in the .38
- Thread starter Puncha
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armoredman
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Onion or parfait?
TimboKhan
Member
hmm... Oddly, my thoughts on the .38 have changed, but in the exact opposite direction as Puncha. I would be lying if I said that I have conducted penetration tests of any sort, but I have researched the issue, and while nothing beats your own empirical observations, all the data I have looked at has left me satisfied that I would not be undergunned with a .38 in a SD situation. Interestingly, while I wouldn't call it "research", one time my buddy and I did blaze away at a phone book that we had suspended from our target stand, and it was fairly easy (and fun) to blow rounds through it and watch confetti shoot out the back. I am no physics guy, but I assume that because the phone book was suspended and the pages not tightly compacted together in addition to the relatively large amount of movement that the setup provided (no rigid backround), the space between the pages offered less immediate resistance than a closed phone book would have, although what I don't know about this subject could fill a book.
Jkwas
Member
I shot some S&B 148grn wadcutters with my 3in model10. Horrible load. They tumbled and slashed at the target, many appeared to hit sideways. Don't go by the results produced by this load. Try their 158gn FMJ. It works a lot better, and better yet, buy a premium JHP load for SD. 
P.s I was blasting away at 3/4" plywood with 158 grain .38 lrn (winchester)and .357 mag 158 grain PMC jsp's with a 6" gp100. The rounds whizzed right thru. My buddy grab his sks rifle and fire's a 30 round mag into the same board. Not one 7.62 mm round in that mag penetrated! It was factory ammo since he wouldnt know how to reload. The next mag with different ammo did go thru however. I had no idea where or what kind of ammo he was using but still.
It was factory ammo since he wouldnt know how to reload. The next mag with different ammo did go thru however. I had no idea where or what kind of ammo he was using but still.MCgunner
Member
Well, I think we should give Hinkley a .44 mag and give him another shot at the Bradys. How's THAT for distasteful?
vanilla_gorilla
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I have long since lost all faith in the .38, particularly the snub model. Perhaps this might change when I lay hands on some of the loads made specifically made for short barrels, but as of right now, I consider the .38 the absolute minimum in self defense rounds.
The standard argument is that the .38 has "killed more people than we can ever talk about" and that is very likely true. After all, how many untold numbers of police officers and bad guys alike have used it, often resulting in death? Well, if killing is all you want in a self-defense piece, then I'm sure the .38 is quite fine for you. I do not personally care if my attacker lives or dies, as long as he is STOPPED. I want him to stop attacking me, and anything beyond that is immaterial. This is where the .38 falls short. It's terminal ballistics, particularly out of ~2 inch barrels, is inadequate to provide the necessary tissue damage for good stops.
I prefer bigger bullets with hollow noses that I can trust to expand. If I can't have bigger bullets, I can certainly have faster bullets. Either one works better though.
The standard argument is that the .38 has "killed more people than we can ever talk about" and that is very likely true. After all, how many untold numbers of police officers and bad guys alike have used it, often resulting in death? Well, if killing is all you want in a self-defense piece, then I'm sure the .38 is quite fine for you. I do not personally care if my attacker lives or dies, as long as he is STOPPED. I want him to stop attacking me, and anything beyond that is immaterial. This is where the .38 falls short. It's terminal ballistics, particularly out of ~2 inch barrels, is inadequate to provide the necessary tissue damage for good stops.
I prefer bigger bullets with hollow noses that I can trust to expand. If I can't have bigger bullets, I can certainly have faster bullets. Either one works better though.
BluesBear
member
I used to use dry Louisville, KY phone books as a backstop.
This was back when the white and yellow pages were combined.
.357/.41/.44/.45 I've never had ANY handgun cartridge fired from a handgun penetrate even a single one.
A telephone book acts like a kevlar vest. A lot of layers combining resistance to stop the bullet.
And when wet the resistence lessens greatly!
This was back when the white and yellow pages were combined.
.357/.41/.44/.45 I've never had ANY handgun cartridge fired from a handgun penetrate even a single one.
A telephone book acts like a kevlar vest. A lot of layers combining resistance to stop the bullet.
And when wet the resistence lessens greatly!
Stainz
Member
The so-called 'FBI load', the +P 158gr LHPSWC, like the Remington R38S12 (~$22/50), was designed for short barrels. I have chrono-ed the Remington round at 840 fps from my 2" 10-11 (A very recent +P variant.), while from my 6" 66-6, they made 994 fps, which is possibly just too fast for a LHP. According to those who tabulate 'one shot stop' data, they fare far better than .45ACP ball ammo in 'OSS'. This data simply implies the fight is over, not that the attacker was vaporized.
That round is fine in my 2" 10 with wood service boot grips - or anything larger. They are miserable in a 642, of course, but that is what I'll use in a 642 - when I get one. Collateral damage, easily experienced in hyper-velocity .357M rounds of the day - now in lite weight +P .38's, shouldn't be a problem with a lead HP at that ~840 fps.
Wasn't the 158gr LRN load at one time referred to as the 'widowmaker' load by NYPD? Still, the very best .38 load is whatever you have in your .38 - when you need it.
Stainz
That round is fine in my 2" 10 with wood service boot grips - or anything larger. They are miserable in a 642, of course, but that is what I'll use in a 642 - when I get one. Collateral damage, easily experienced in hyper-velocity .357M rounds of the day - now in lite weight +P .38's, shouldn't be a problem with a lead HP at that ~840 fps.
Wasn't the 158gr LRN load at one time referred to as the 'widowmaker' load by NYPD? Still, the very best .38 load is whatever you have in your .38 - when you need it.
Stainz
JERRY
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the "widow maker" was used for the cop carrying that round, meaning he will probably die in the gun fight because of the rounds anemic design.....hence his wife would be a widow, not the bad guys.....
in a snubby, the Cor-Bon DPX round gives good penetration and almost absolute expansion, about the best you can expect from any caliber or gun in general. the round has been shown to pen/exp. so consistantly from a snubby that i have stoked my model 37 with it.
the Remington (not Win. or Fed.) 158gr. lhp does the same from a snubby. it does it better than the others because it uses a softer lead, allowing it do expand reliably from the 2" barreled guns....
i have some of those stoked in some other airweights i have....
but note, both of these laods are not fun at all to shoot in a light weight snubby. but i believe they are the best performers in such a gun.
in a snubby, the Cor-Bon DPX round gives good penetration and almost absolute expansion, about the best you can expect from any caliber or gun in general. the round has been shown to pen/exp. so consistantly from a snubby that i have stoked my model 37 with it.
the Remington (not Win. or Fed.) 158gr. lhp does the same from a snubby. it does it better than the others because it uses a softer lead, allowing it do expand reliably from the 2" barreled guns....
i have some of those stoked in some other airweights i have....
but note, both of these laods are not fun at all to shoot in a light weight snubby. but i believe they are the best performers in such a gun.
MCgunner
Member
I thought the "widow maker" referred to the lead round noses that cops used to be forced to carry in NY? I wouldn't apply that to the FBI load.
Puncha
Member
To clarify my rationale...
....i) I tested the rounds at 20+ meters because I shoot most accurately at that range (don't ask me why 20-25m is the magic range for me, I just shoot best at that distance. ) and wanted to ensure that I hit the A4 sized phonebook accurately.
ii) I reasoned that if the wadcutters were able to penetrate at 20-25 meters, then I would have confidence that it would go deeply enough into a large sized perp at shorter distances.
iii) Similarly, with 148gr target loads being mild, if it could do well for penetration even with a totally flat nose, then a normal speed 158gr LRN with a sharper nose would DEFINATELY be able to do the job.
iv) It's now very difficult to buy self protection ammo where I reside due to recent govt regulations.
....i) I tested the rounds at 20+ meters because I shoot most accurately at that range (don't ask me why 20-25m is the magic range for me, I just shoot best at that distance.
) and wanted to ensure that I hit the A4 sized phonebook accurately. ii) I reasoned that if the wadcutters were able to penetrate at 20-25 meters, then I would have confidence that it would go deeply enough into a large sized perp at shorter distances.
iii) Similarly, with 148gr target loads being mild, if it could do well for penetration even with a totally flat nose, then a normal speed 158gr LRN with a sharper nose would DEFINATELY be able to do the job.
iv) It's now very difficult to buy self protection ammo where I reside due to recent govt regulations.
JERRY
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as you know im sure, shot placement is second to nothing. expansion of a bullet is way behind penetration as the next thing in line.....
but penetration and expansion mean little if you shot a bad guy in the arm or leg or even in the gut (if it misses the pelvic girdle) and he continues to fight........
if shot placement was a given, then all the other h.p. would have a real world arguement over what is best.
but i'd rather take the latest and greatest touted h.p. in the arm, leg, or gut, over a taget load in the chest........
dont get too hung up on the junk science that some folks use to promote their pet loads........while there are some true innovations and a few have real world street results without the fuzzy math to squew numbers, the only thing any good round has in common with another is the shot placement.......
Mr. Cirillo (ret. nypd) has documented many kills in the line of duty........quite a few were head shots since he had the drop on them often enough......his target was the eye or ear depending on the presentation, and it did not matter that he was using a load that by todays "standards" was a "poor stooper" or had less than 50% one shot stops........
he put it where it had to go. and if you do the same, you will be far better of than the guy who has the latest gee whiz round that under stress cant make consistant K5 shot or whatever you call it now......
but penetration and expansion mean little if you shot a bad guy in the arm or leg or even in the gut (if it misses the pelvic girdle) and he continues to fight........
if shot placement was a given, then all the other h.p. would have a real world arguement over what is best.
but i'd rather take the latest and greatest touted h.p. in the arm, leg, or gut, over a taget load in the chest........
dont get too hung up on the junk science that some folks use to promote their pet loads........while there are some true innovations and a few have real world street results without the fuzzy math to squew numbers, the only thing any good round has in common with another is the shot placement.......
Mr. Cirillo (ret. nypd) has documented many kills in the line of duty........quite a few were head shots since he had the drop on them often enough......his target was the eye or ear depending on the presentation, and it did not matter that he was using a load that by todays "standards" was a "poor stooper" or had less than 50% one shot stops........
he put it where it had to go. and if you do the same, you will be far better of than the guy who has the latest gee whiz round that under stress cant make consistant K5 shot or whatever you call it now......
grislyatoms
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I am going to build myself a phone book vest!
MCgunner
Member
Oh, I re-read that. Makes more sense now...:banghead:
Puncha,
Don't give up on the .38 special. It has performed well in every shooting I have investigated. That being said, the .38 is similar to the 9mm in that its performance is very load-dependant. I doubt a 130gr bullet going 800 fps (WWB, I believe) is going to match a 158gr bullet at 900 fps (approximation of the FBI load).
BTW, you may be interested in a write-up of the .38's real-life performance here (from an incident in Atlanta):
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=151697&highlight=homicide+call
David
P.S. in the above instance, even the wimpy 130gr WWB performed well.
-D
Don't give up on the .38 special. It has performed well in every shooting I have investigated. That being said, the .38 is similar to the 9mm in that its performance is very load-dependant. I doubt a 130gr bullet going 800 fps (WWB, I believe) is going to match a 158gr bullet at 900 fps (approximation of the FBI load).
BTW, you may be interested in a write-up of the .38's real-life performance here (from an incident in Atlanta):
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=151697&highlight=homicide+call
David
P.S. in the above instance, even the wimpy 130gr WWB performed well.
-D
Last edited:
Jackal
Member
Okay, thats it. Im making a phone book "bullet proof vest".
357wheelgunner
Member
"BTW, if anyone is asking me to consider HP rounds or +P rounds, I would like to add that the local authorities have very recently tightened controls over the sale of +P or HP ammo to non LEOs."
Where the hell do you live? No where in America are hollowpoints outlawed. I'd get your facts straight.....
Where the hell do you live? No where in America are hollowpoints outlawed. I'd get your facts straight.....
cslinger
Member
Actually hollowpoints are technically illegal in New Jersey. I believe you can own them on your property but cannot carry them in any way (read that as loose in your pockets). Basically HPs in New Jersey are ILLEGAL.
Chris
Chris
sm
member
Scientific Mud/ Dirt Test
I am a huge fan of the Model 10 and its Cousin the Model 64.
I like dedicated .38spls. Oh I am a big fan of K frame revolvers, be they .22, to .357, still the dedicated Model 10/ 64 are proven.
SM/D Test is something I was Mentored about in the '50's. I was born in '55, and I recall this test the first time. Seems these folks been doing it forever. Even checking Blackpowder loads...way back when...
Many on this board, folks you all have read reviews by, and have done business also know of this Test, and have mentioned as I have, and am about to again.
Shoot dirt.
Mentors kept it simple, fill a box with dirt/ mud , shoot, and from the top of box, recover bullets, buckshot, slugs, whatever.
Make a note of all pertinent information. Gun, factory ammo/ reload data, distance...etc. Keep the bullet and label it.
I have used a Model 10 to shoot critters for instance. Recover bullet. Look up notes, and it is amazing how close and similar the Scientific Mud/ Dirt Test Bullet replicates the one recovered from a critter.
I have compared with meat, that went bad due to loss of power, shot hams, roasts, side of beef...and that was a busy day , shooting and making notes, tagging bullets, pellets and slugs.
I have also shot vehicles, from outside into - and from inside out of. Doors, windshields , etc.
Mentors said back when, repeated since , still applicable.
"One must test their gun with ammo to know. Best to have a easy method to test and make notes to refer back to".
I believe in the Model 10, the dedicated .38spls, and in keeping it simple when it comes to me testing, and having comparisons for me to conduct.
I appreciate and respect all the time, money and efforts other folks do and share - still I need to have a way I can test for me.
One person that does the SM/D test, makes ammo, and sells it.
We have used simple cardboard boxes, Wood "coffins" out of discarded furniture, like dressers on backsides filled with dirt/ mud, dresser drawers themselves, made wooden "coffins" with scrap wood , to using 55 gal and smaller drums, on their side, side cut out.
Anything as a front to keep dirt in. We can put a pane of glass, drywall, denim, you name it in front to check penetration and deflection.
Glass does interesting things to bullets.
HTH
Steve
I am a huge fan of the Model 10 and its Cousin the Model 64.
I like dedicated .38spls. Oh I am a big fan of K frame revolvers, be they .22, to .357, still the dedicated Model 10/ 64 are proven.
SM/D Test is something I was Mentored about in the '50's. I was born in '55, and I recall this test the first time. Seems these folks been doing it forever. Even checking Blackpowder loads...way back when...
Many on this board, folks you all have read reviews by, and have done business also know of this Test, and have mentioned as I have, and am about to again.
Shoot dirt.
Mentors kept it simple, fill a box with dirt/ mud , shoot, and from the top of box, recover bullets, buckshot, slugs, whatever.
Make a note of all pertinent information. Gun, factory ammo/ reload data, distance...etc. Keep the bullet and label it.
I have used a Model 10 to shoot critters for instance. Recover bullet. Look up notes, and it is amazing how close and similar the Scientific Mud/ Dirt Test Bullet replicates the one recovered from a critter.
I have compared with meat, that went bad due to loss of power, shot hams, roasts, side of beef...and that was a busy day , shooting and making notes, tagging bullets, pellets and slugs.
I have also shot vehicles, from outside into - and from inside out of. Doors, windshields , etc.
Mentors said back when, repeated since , still applicable.
"One must test their gun with ammo to know. Best to have a easy method to test and make notes to refer back to".
I believe in the Model 10, the dedicated .38spls, and in keeping it simple when it comes to me testing, and having comparisons for me to conduct.
I appreciate and respect all the time, money and efforts other folks do and share - still I need to have a way I can test for me.
One person that does the SM/D test, makes ammo, and sells it.
We have used simple cardboard boxes, Wood "coffins" out of discarded furniture, like dressers on backsides filled with dirt/ mud, dresser drawers themselves, made wooden "coffins" with scrap wood , to using 55 gal and smaller drums, on their side, side cut out.
Anything as a front to keep dirt in. We can put a pane of glass, drywall, denim, you name it in front to check penetration and deflection.
Glass does interesting things to bullets.
HTH
Steve
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