Shel
Member
I saw this same article in TV Guide magazine. I wondered the same thing. I will be the first to admit I don't know a lot about guns. I remember something about they sayd "it was the hitmen's calliber of choice".
"Low velocity bullet" = "ricochet around in skull" stupid myth
- Thread starter Godfather
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I have seen the autopsy photos of a young man who commited suicide by firing a .22 LR bullet into the roof of his mouth from a Marlin Model 60 rifle.
The bullet went into the brain, traveled at an upward and to the rear angle, hit the back of the skull, ricocheted to the right side, again the bullet ricocheted to the left side and exited just to the front of the left ear canal.
When the kids brain was sectioned and viewed from the top, it looked like the bullet had cut a near perfect X into his brain.
Poor kid and yes things such as this can and do happen.
The bullet went into the brain, traveled at an upward and to the rear angle, hit the back of the skull, ricocheted to the right side, again the bullet ricocheted to the left side and exited just to the front of the left ear canal.
When the kids brain was sectioned and viewed from the top, it looked like the bullet had cut a near perfect X into his brain.
Poor kid and yes things such as this can and do happen.
Dain Bramage
Member
From MY BLUE HEAVEN:
Vinnie (Steve Martin): "Richie loved to use 22s because the bullets are small and they don't come out the other end like a 45, see, a 45 will blow a barn door out the back of your head and there's a lot of dry cleaning involved, but a 22 will just rattle around like Pac-Man until you're dead."
Vinnie (Steve Martin): "Richie loved to use 22s because the bullets are small and they don't come out the other end like a 45, see, a 45 will blow a barn door out the back of your head and there's a lot of dry cleaning involved, but a 22 will just rattle around like Pac-Man until you're dead."
50caliber123
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the TV guide article with the caption about how a .22 is "the weapon of choice for hitmen" sounds like an anti-gun ploy to me. When I was a kid, we all strted with .22's. Way to scare our Mom's, Hollywood!
Godfather
Member
I do know that bullets will bounce some in the head, especially low velocity handgun bullets, I studied forensic science for a few years. But I just didn't think the bullet bouncing would make it more likely to kill you (obviously the "brain to soup" bit is hookah), or that "hitmen" would do that inentionally.
Dionysusigma
Member
My (admittedly rather sick) story... I have not confirmed this, but *cough* someone I know who is a coroner told me about this.
BG robs a convenience store with a knife. BG leaves, finds police in the parking lot, guns drawn. Despite common sense and warnings from police officers, BG approahes the cops. One officer, one shot, one .45 ACP hitting the BG's forehead at a "funny angle". BG dies instantaneously.
Now, for the official report, it was not a "clean" head shot. The trajectory of the 230gr FMJ pierced the man's skull, but the curved walls of the brain cavity caused the bullet to go 'round and 'round, effectively liquefying the brain of the BG. By the time the body had arrived at the morgue, the brain had re-coagulated into what was described as a "grayish-red substance reminiscent of Jell-O with bananas."
Bullets do weird things sometimes.
BG robs a convenience store with a knife. BG leaves, finds police in the parking lot, guns drawn. Despite common sense and warnings from police officers, BG approahes the cops. One officer, one shot, one .45 ACP hitting the BG's forehead at a "funny angle". BG dies instantaneously.
Now, for the official report, it was not a "clean" head shot. The trajectory of the 230gr FMJ pierced the man's skull, but the curved walls of the brain cavity caused the bullet to go 'round and 'round, effectively liquefying the brain of the BG. By the time the body had arrived at the morgue, the brain had re-coagulated into what was described as a "grayish-red substance reminiscent of Jell-O with bananas."
Bullets do weird things sometimes.
X Who
Member
Loading down 308 ammo to get the bullet to bounce around in the head seems silly to me. I once exploded a jackrabbit with a 110 gr. JHP from a 308.
A head shot at any decent range with that load would blow most of the brains out the backside of the skull (what a mess). A head shot with any other full-power 308 load would be lethal.
Maybe there is a grain of truth (given the .22 bounce) to the TV show, but it still does not make real sense.
A head shot at any decent range with that load would blow most of the brains out the backside of the skull (what a mess). A head shot with any other full-power 308 load would be lethal.Maybe there is a grain of truth (given the .22 bounce) to the TV show, but it still does not make real sense.
twoblink
Member
Well, we all know if the .44Mag hit you in the pinky, it's so powerful that it'd spin you around!!
Chow Yung Fat carries a 1911 that has 400+ rounds..
Then again you can stick a gun in your mouth, pull the trigger, and only blow out your cheek.. Never mind the violent expansion of air in your mouth should should have turned your bottom jaw and your throat into soup...
These are catagorically "Hollywood laws of physics".
Chow Yung Fat carries a 1911 that has 400+ rounds..
Then again you can stick a gun in your mouth, pull the trigger, and only blow out your cheek.. Never mind the violent expansion of air in your mouth should should have turned your bottom jaw and your throat into soup...
These are catagorically "Hollywood laws of physics".
Strings
Member
I tend to believe the ".22 leaves a small entrance hole, and no exit" idea. And evrything *I* have ever heard about mob hitmen was that they prefered it for that reason: small entrance, no exit, less mess to clean...
Thefabulousfink
Member
As far as Hitmen favoring the .22 cal, I have heard of the CIA and other agencies favoring small caliber, silenced weapons during the Cold War including the Ruger Mark II with integral silencer, and the Welrod pistol (.32 acp). These weapons were extremly silent (esp the Welrod which was bolt-action) and used to eliminate targets at close range.
As for skull bouncing, I would imagine that there is a small window of velocity that would give a bullet enough energy to pierce the skull, continue through the brain tissue, and have just the right amount of energy to strike the far side, bounce off, but not break through.
From what I know, most .22's have a hard time even piercing the skull and to do so require a combination of shot placement, high velocity (i.e. rifle), or a hardend bullet.
As for skull bouncing, I would imagine that there is a small window of velocity that would give a bullet enough energy to pierce the skull, continue through the brain tissue, and have just the right amount of energy to strike the far side, bounce off, but not break through.
From what I know, most .22's have a hard time even piercing the skull and to do so require a combination of shot placement, high velocity (i.e. rifle), or a hardend bullet.
Many years ago there was a report of a shooting in Washington, DC, where a bullet from a .45 caliber automatic (it could only have been .45ACP at that time) entered the front of a man's skull, travelled around inside the skull and lodged under the skin at the rear of the neck. Not only was the shot not fatal, but the man reported only a mild headache.
I don't know the medical details, but I have no real reason to doubt the story, which appeared in several newspapers at the time. I once asked a doctor if such a thing was possible, and he said that it was possible, but really unlikely (which I already knew). He said the brain has a rather tough covering called dura matter, which is flexible enough to be pushed out of the way by a (relatively) slow moving projectile, and that a bullet could force its way between the skull and the dura matter without damaging the brain.
It seems we are tougher than we think we are.
Jim
I don't know the medical details, but I have no real reason to doubt the story, which appeared in several newspapers at the time. I once asked a doctor if such a thing was possible, and he said that it was possible, but really unlikely (which I already knew). He said the brain has a rather tough covering called dura matter, which is flexible enough to be pushed out of the way by a (relatively) slow moving projectile, and that a bullet could force its way between the skull and the dura matter without damaging the brain.
It seems we are tougher than we think we are.
Jim
Strings
Member
See ever'body? The .45 just ain't enough gun! 
JMusic
member
When a bullet "any bullet" hits an object they can and do some funny things. It is unpredictable ,do to bullet size, velocity, substrate, and angle. I saw an autopsy of a woman who had been shot 5 times. Some bullets ran fairly straight routes others ran multiple angles. I saw a man who had committed suicide by sticking a 44 mag in his mouth and pulling the trigger. Most of his brain bounced off the ceiling in his garage and then slid across the floor about 15 ft. Maybe there is something to this ricochet thing.
Jim
Jim
Jayb
Member
First hand ecperience with .22 cal ricochets......
As an EMT, I was dispatched to a home invasion scene with gunshot wounds. Three guys and a female broke into a home and assaulted the wife, sleeping on the couch. Hubby wakes up, grabs a tube fed Marlin .22 (15 rounds), and empties it at the four. We took all four to the hospital where they remained in critical/serious condition for three and a half weeks. All four had multiple organ damage, which was caused by three wounds on two peersons, and 4 wounds on the female and the other male. One tire on the get-away vehicle was flattened by a round. When we arrived at the home, the husband was sitting at the kitchen table with a knife wound to his side, calmly reloading the rifle. To brush off the damage potential of the .22 cal round would seem somewhat arrogant to me. Especially after seeing what can happen.
For what it's worth,
Jay
edit....... re: the title of this thread, I have no first hand knowledge of inter-skull ricochets..
As an EMT, I was dispatched to a home invasion scene with gunshot wounds. Three guys and a female broke into a home and assaulted the wife, sleeping on the couch. Hubby wakes up, grabs a tube fed Marlin .22 (15 rounds), and empties it at the four. We took all four to the hospital where they remained in critical/serious condition for three and a half weeks. All four had multiple organ damage, which was caused by three wounds on two peersons, and 4 wounds on the female and the other male. One tire on the get-away vehicle was flattened by a round. When we arrived at the home, the husband was sitting at the kitchen table with a knife wound to his side, calmly reloading the rifle. To brush off the damage potential of the .22 cal round would seem somewhat arrogant to me. Especially after seeing what can happen.
For what it's worth,
Jay
edit....... re: the title of this thread, I have no first hand knowledge of inter-skull ricochets..
444 said:
I was a paramedic for almost 15 years and worked a lot of shootings. In one case a man was shot in the shoulder with a .22LR rifle and died almost immediately. In another a young woman was shot in the head with a .22 Short handgun and wasn't seriously injured.
In the first case the man's ex-wife deliberately aimed for his shoulder at a range of about 15 feet because she didn't want to kill him, only stop him from beating her again, which is what he was threatening at the time she fired. The bullet entered the shoulder, deflected off the shoulder blade, traveled across his chest puncturing his aorta and ended up just under the skin on the opposite shoulder.
The girl shot herself, attempting suicide. The slug bounced off her skull and was laying on the living room floor when we arrived. X-rays later showed hairline skull fractures radiating from the point of impact, but no serious injury. She was kept in the hospital for psychiatric treatment.
Overall I probably worked 20 or 30 shootings, maybe a few more. Every one is different. I've seen people shot with .44s that bled very little externally, and others shot with .32s that bled all over the place. I saw a guy shot nine times with a .22WMR who walked to the ambulance, and another shot once with a .25acp who was dead before he hit the ground.
One of the most amazing was a guy who was wanted for killing a police officer during a bank robbery. When the cops knocked on the motel room door he made the mistake of looking through the peephole. He caught a load of 00 buck square in the chest (this was back in the early 70s when things were done a bit differently than today). When we went into the room both shoes and one sock were in front of the door where he'd been standing. The other stock was still on his foot. He'd literally been knocked out of his shoes by the blast.
jjohnson
Member
Hollywood
Oh, please.
Remember, you don't watch TV to get technical information about shooting, reloading, handloading, right? Right?
Sure, a bullet can kinda take a bounce here and there given particular angles, speeds, and taking into consideration what it's gone through before... but that's all incidental. There's a couple of camps who'll still debate killing power in terms of (1) penetration of vitals regardless of what bullet is used,
(2) hydrostatic shock theory (3) exotic stuff like garlic in hollowpoints to cause blood poisoning (4) voodoo and (5) things even more strange. Very few believe the idea of putting a bullet into somebody's head is to cause death by the pingpong effect. :banghead:
There's some very well credentialed ballisticians and medical doctors who write about forensics that read this forum. Go THERE for technical info on killing and leave the TV to its job - entertainment, not education.
Oh, please.
Remember, you don't watch TV to get technical information about shooting, reloading, handloading, right? Right?
Sure, a bullet can kinda take a bounce here and there given particular angles, speeds, and taking into consideration what it's gone through before... but that's all incidental. There's a couple of camps who'll still debate killing power in terms of (1) penetration of vitals regardless of what bullet is used,
(2) hydrostatic shock theory (3) exotic stuff like garlic in hollowpoints to cause blood poisoning (4) voodoo and (5) things even more strange. Very few believe the idea of putting a bullet into somebody's head is to cause death by the pingpong effect. :banghead:
There's some very well credentialed ballisticians and medical doctors who write about forensics that read this forum. Go THERE for technical info on killing and leave the TV to its job - entertainment, not education.
Taurus 66
Member
If you saw it on TV, it has to be true.
It's TV... Caveat Emptor.
A really good at 'TV" is watching 'CSI' vs. Watching 'The First 48' where real cops and criminalists catch real bad guys... funny their offices don't look like they were designed by Michael Mann and if it's dark they usually wait until morning to do a search so they don't miss anything.
.22's can bounce, but I wouldn't count on it.
A really good at 'TV" is watching 'CSI' vs. Watching 'The First 48' where real cops and criminalists catch real bad guys... funny their offices don't look like they were designed by Michael Mann and if it's dark they usually wait until morning to do a search so they don't miss anything.
.22's can bounce, but I wouldn't count on it.
Lupinus
Member
uhm
if you get hit in the head with a 308 I do believe that not only is your brain gonna be soup already but there also isn't going to be much of a soup bowl left
if you get hit in the head with a 308 I do believe that not only is your brain gonna be soup already but there also isn't going to be much of a soup bowl left
JesseJames
Member
I recall seeing a police video of a hostage standoff. A guy had a woman in a headlock with a gun to her head.
A police sniper had him in his sights. He took the shot and most likely hit him with a .308 round.
They blurred the impact to the gunmans head but there was a HUGE splash of blood and I guess brain matter that flew out where his head was.
I am positive a good portion of his cranium was pulverized.
I would never look to entertainment for anything factual about firearms. The range, the field, and books are for finding the facts.
A police sniper had him in his sights. He took the shot and most likely hit him with a .308 round.
They blurred the impact to the gunmans head but there was a HUGE splash of blood and I guess brain matter that flew out where his head was.
I am positive a good portion of his cranium was pulverized.
I would never look to entertainment for anything factual about firearms. The range, the field, and books are for finding the facts.
I always figured that hitmen would use a .22LR because it's relatively quiet. On top of that, it's easy to silence. And most states don't make you hand over your FID when you buy rimfire ammo (unlike centerfire).Strings said:
When you put all that together, the 22LR seems like a reasonable choice. But what do I know?
If you guys have a serious interest in gunshot wounds you should read Vincent J.M. Di Maio's book 'Gunshot Wounds.'
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849381630/103-9243537-9945401?v=glance&n=283155
In Di Maio's book, Chapter 9 deals with 'Bloody Bodies and Bloody Scenes.'
Di Maio noted that of 185 cases of suicide by .22, only 20% of those bullets exited. Of 60 cases of homicide by .22 only 6.6% exited. These figures are from gunshot heads only. He further adds: "...of the bullets that do not exit the head, the vast majority are retained in the cranial cavity. Thus, internal ricochet is fairly common, occurring in anywhere from 10 to 15% of the cases..." (See page 264 and 265)
Also, you can give Malcolm Dodd's book 'Terminal Ballistics' a read:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849335779/103-9243537-9945401?v=glance&n=283155
In Dodd's book, Chaper 8 deals with the 'Rimfire .22 Projectile.'
Dodd acknowledges that "...the .22 short and LR rounds also have the reputation of internal ricochet within the cranium, further creating complex injury patterns..." (See page 41)
You have not been charged for this research which I have conducted on your behalf
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849381630/103-9243537-9945401?v=glance&n=283155
In Di Maio's book, Chapter 9 deals with 'Bloody Bodies and Bloody Scenes.'
Di Maio noted that of 185 cases of suicide by .22, only 20% of those bullets exited. Of 60 cases of homicide by .22 only 6.6% exited. These figures are from gunshot heads only. He further adds: "...of the bullets that do not exit the head, the vast majority are retained in the cranial cavity. Thus, internal ricochet is fairly common, occurring in anywhere from 10 to 15% of the cases..." (See page 264 and 265)
Also, you can give Malcolm Dodd's book 'Terminal Ballistics' a read:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849335779/103-9243537-9945401?v=glance&n=283155
In Dodd's book, Chaper 8 deals with the 'Rimfire .22 Projectile.'
Dodd acknowledges that "...the .22 short and LR rounds also have the reputation of internal ricochet within the cranium, further creating complex injury patterns..." (See page 41)
You have not been charged for this research which I have conducted on your behalf
Dark Helmet
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Used to be a guy living around here that was mugged in his younger years. He took a 38 Special in his temple at contact range- it came out the other side of his head. His nickname was- get this- Mr. Clean!
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