Luger Grip Angle

[Anteater1717]

Why do so few modern auto-loaders use the steep Luger style grip angle? It's very ergonomic, yet I can think of only one modern handgun that uses it (Ruger Mark III).

 

[legion3]

Steyrs M-1A pistol has a distinct sweep.

Perhaps German shooters cried about grip angles and ergonomics and pointability and removeable backstraps and ... no wait that's American shooters

 

[WardenWolf]

Because it's an odd angle not well-matched to the natural pointing of your hand at full extension. The 1911 angled grip, and those close to it, provide a much more natural point of aim for your hand. Even many revolvers will subtly copy this grip angle. The primary advantage of the Luger grip angle is increased magazine capacity due a longer grip being able to take less vertical space.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

It doesn't fit a lot of people and makes the gun point high when aiming unless you bend your wrest down.

It also offers a less then ideal feed angle for the magazine.
The straighter the feed column, the more reliable it is.

rc

 

[9mmepiphany]

most high end target pistols use the grip angle of the Luger. the down side of the angle is that it is rather steep for realiable feed from mags

BTW: glock uses a similar grip angle

 

[rcmodel]

most high end target pistols use the grip angle of the Luger.

That is done more to prevent rim-lock in the magazines with rimmed .22LR ammo then for comfort.

rc

 

[Pizzagunner]

I love the sentiment that if the Germans did something, it must have been a great idea. Sauerkraut anyone?

Why would actual combat shooters adopt the grip angle of pistols intended as the bauble of an officer and mostly fired only to cap civilians in the back of the head or to commit suicide?

Georg Luger was a latecomer to firearms design and his most noted project can be considered an historic piece but a technological dead end save for its "magnum" cartridge (mostly developed by Hugo Borchardt off of his earlier 7.65mm designs) and a .22lr homage piece by Bill Ruger. The 9x19mm lives on, but the Luger does not in any meaningful way.

I'll take the grip angle immortalized by the very prolific John Moses Browning thank you very much.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think the slanted grip is favored by some schools of target shooting because the dropped wrist is thought to be steadier than the neutral wrist angle of, say, a 1911.

The American tendency has been to less angle because NRA Conventional shoots 1/3 and often 2/3 of the match with a .45 and we consider it better to have all our guns feeling similar than to get a theoretical advantage with one of them. Note the shift over the years from the old Woodsman and slant grip High Standards to the Model 41, Military model High Standards, and Marvel Conversions.

ISU shooters don't have that requirement and most European target pistols have a lot of slant to the grip for whatever advantage tensing the wrist down gives. That has carried over into service pistols from Glock and Steyr. Not to mention the Benelli effort.
If you want to shoot centerfire and bigbore with the Continental Grip, or just want a metal .45 with a lot of rake, look at the Pardini GT.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That is done more to prevent rim-lock in the magazines with rimmed .22LR ammo then for comfort

and how would that apply to Hammerali Olympic pistols which are single shot or feed from a forward (of the trigger guard) mag?

extend your arm and relaxed hand, with the thumbside up, out toward a target. extend your thumb forward to grip, still with a relaxed hand, andyou'll find that your hand is at a natural angle proscribed by the Luger

the "1911" grip angle favors a straighten wrist...like punching...which is very american in nature. the european grip is more related to a fencing grip

 

[Anteater1717]

Pizzagunner, how can you not love Sauerkraut? It's great!

Now that I'm thinking about it, reliable feeding sounds like the most prominent reason.

 

[WardenWolf]

9mm, extend your hand and point at something with your index finger, or index and middle fingers. You'll find it perfectly matches a 1911 grip angle. The 1911 grip is designed to make the gun an extension of your hand. If you learn to point it instead of your finger, you can quickly put it on target. The Luger's grip angle does not, and instead forces you to use the sights. For fast short-range target acquisition, the 1911 grip angle is superior.

 

[Mad Magyar]

9mm, extend your hand and point at something with your index finger, or index and middle fingers. You'll find it perfectly matches a 1911 grip angle. The 1911 grip is designed to make the gun an extension of your hand. If you learn to point it instead of your finger, you can quickly put it on target. The Luger's grip angle does not, and instead forces you to use the sights. For fast short-range target acquisition, the 1911 grip angle is superior.
__________________

I must have an abnormal hand-wrist; I have your statement in reverse...

 

[bigfatdave]

Because it's an odd angle not well-matched to the natural pointing of your hand at full extension.

Perhaps for you - when I pick up a Ruger with a similar angle, it fits and the sights align naturally for one-hand or Weaver shooting. The modern isosceles works well with either grip angle, but for natural handgunning, the raked-back grip works best, for me. MrsBFD disagrees, and I see that a lot of other shooters are on the side of vertical grips ... I just wish more handguns were available in the raked-back Luger angle. Luckily my Ruger .22 is as cheap as it is enjoyable to shoot, too bad it isn't a good choice for much but punching paper or varmints.

and a .22lr homage piece by Bill Ruger

If you are referring to the Ruger Mark I/II/III (not the 22/45 frame) ... the original Ruger pistol was a descendant of the Baby Nambu:
From Wikipedia:
"However, there was one redeeming quality that had apparently caught the eye of William B. Ruger who had acquired a captured Nambu from a returning US Marine, shortly after WWII ended in 1945. Bill Ruger duplicated two Baby Nambus in his garage[1], and although he decided against marketing them, the handgun's rear cocking device and the Nambu's silhouette was incorporated into one of the most popular .22 semi-automatic pistols to ever enter the US firearms market, when in 1949 the Ruger Standard (and later Mark I, II, and III) pistols were sold to the US public."

 

[Gordon]

"It also offers a less then ideal feed angle for the magazine.
The straighter the feed column, the more reliable it is."
BINGO!

 

[9mmepiphany]

"It also offers a less then ideal feed angle for the magazine.
The straighter the feed column, the more reliable it is."
BINGO!

that is one of the "cool" features of the H&K P-7. it has a much straighter mag than any 1911 pattern gun and yet has a much more rakish grip angle

 

[GLOOB]

extend your hand and point at something with your index finger, or index and middle fingers. You'll find it perfectly matches a 1911 grip angle.

- You are quite correct. But I'd have to see what kind of group you can shoot with your finger before calling this a benefit. I'd say gang-bangers who hold the gun sideways are the most faithful subscriber to the point-and shoot-method. I suppose if they used 1911's instead of Glocks, they'd be punching out the bull's eye?

1911 grip is designed to make the gun an extension of your hand

- A raked grip is designed to make the gun an extension of your arm, and this has clear benefits. Lower bore axis, bore axis more inline with arm axis, less fatigue, and better recoil control. Hint: the gun isn't pointed too high. Your head is too high. Get your eye closer to the same axis as your arm and bingo, it all makes sense.

The Luger's grip angle does not, and instead forces you to use the sights. For fast short-range target acquisition, the 1911 grip angle is superior.

I disagree. The Luger doesn't point-shoot well for the same reasons as the straight-gripped broom-handle Mauser - bad balance. Revolver or auto, the best point shooters will have a good balance and a little bit of muzzle length and weight - things which a 1911 has plenty more of than a Luger.

Both a 1911 and a Luger grip are just points on a continuum. You can clearly overdo a grip angle in either direction, and a lot of it has to do with personal preference and experience. For me, the 1911 is a great, wonderful pistol, and I love it. But I sometimes wonder how much better it would be (for me, personally, not for everyone else!) with a couple more degrees of rake in the grip and a flat-topped octagonal slide.