M-16 performance in Iraq/Afganistan ?

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I think the M-4 is ideal for the type of urban combat in Iraq but if I were in the mountains of Afghanistan I would probably want an M-14, but then theres the weight issue.
According to after action reports from the 101st ABN and other units in the Anaconda battle, after their first contact they had no targets within the effective range of 5.56 or 7.62 weapons. Ranges were over 1,500 meters - across mountain passes and the like.

They used mortars (each trooper carried two rounds in the company referenced) which created a problem with their close air support. The Canadians had their .50 cal sniper weapons, but the 101st had not yet received theirs.

There is almost no desire to replace the M4 among active duty soldiers. The most significant change in armament among troops fielded in Iraq is the presence of the IBCT - Stryker Brigades. Stryker units have snipers assigned a the company level, and have a seven man sniper team at Battalion level as well. The push to a designated marksman per squad (with higher power optics and/or a 7.62 rifle) is another trend. Even the Cav units, who perform many similar patrol functions to Infantry are starting to get more precision-oriented weapons, although their TO&E does not currently call for Snipers - an Infantry Branch / Armor Branch wrangle, perhaps.

General Schoomaker, originally an Armored Cav officer who later commanded a D boy Squadron, is known for his flexibility and the force will continue to evolve to be more effective. All this information is publically available.
 
Thanks for the comments . I have no experience using 5.56, 7.62x39 or 5.45x39 on living things, so I appreciate your input.
 
According to after action reports from the 101st ABN and other units in the Anaconda battle, after their first contact they had no targets within the effective range of 5.56 or 7.62 weapons. Ranges were over 1,500 meters - across mountain passes and the like.

They used mortars (each trooper carried two rounds in the company referenced) which created a problem with their close air support. The Canadians had their .50 cal sniper weapons, but the 101st had not yet received theirs.

VG,

You got a hold of some bad information. There were numerous engagements involving small-arms. Mortars did play a significant role, but there was no issue regarding the employment of mortars and CAS.

Trust me.;)
 
VG,

I also saw the same report last year. It really emphasized how useful the M252 is, as I recall.

There is always an issue with simultaneous CAS and mortar usage, since you don't want your air support flying through the trajectory of the round.

John
 
Blackhawk 6:
Equipment wise, our greatest shortcomings were optics and organic or direct support long-range weapons. After the initial fight all our targets were at a minimum of 1500m all the way out to as far as you could see. Our 60[mm] and 81[mm]'s accounted for most of the kills. Next was a Canadian Sniper team with a MacMillian .50 cal [sniper rifle]. They got kills all the way out to 2500m.

The problem with our mortars was there as a 24 hour [Close Air Support] cas cap. And they wouldn't fly near us if we were firing indirect. Even though our max ordnant: [how high mortar rounds arc into the sky] was far beneath their patterns. Something for you and your alo [Air Liaison Officer] to work out. The other problem was the Air Force could never fly in small groups of Personnel, I watched and called corrections on numerous sorties and they could never hit the targets. My verdict is if you want it killed use your mortars. Pay close attention to ti-hz direction of attack your ALO is bringing in the CAS. Every time it was perpendicular to us we were hit with shrapnel. Not to mention the time they dropped a 2,000 lbs [bomb] in the middle of our company, it didn't go off by a sheer miracle I'm sure. [Marine] Cobras and 2.75" [rockets] shot at us. Also, once again, they were shooting perpendicular to our trace. Aviation provided the most near misses of all the things we did.

This was originally a Word doc on the USAIS website when I read it. That's no longer publically accesible but it's quoted widely, and one of the first references I found via google was at: http://www.geocities.com/usarmyafghangearproblems/

The Natick Soldier Center Center AAR powerpoint was copied to: http://www.geocities.com/usarmyafghangearproblems/sld001.htm among other places. I don't have an ox to gore, here.

I know it to be true that General Shinseki did have this and other boots-on-the-ground reports distributed widlely.

Thanks for your service on this 4th of July!
Garryowen

By the rude bridge that arched the flood,
Their flag to April's breeze unfurled,
Here once the embattled farmers stood,
And fired the shot heard round the world.

The foe long since in silence slept;
Alike the conqueror silent sleeps;
And Time the ruined bridge has swept
Down the dark stream which seaward creeps.

On this green bank, by this soft stream,
We set to-day a votive stone;
That memory may their deed redeem,
When, like our sires, our sons are gone.

Spirit, that made those heroes dare
To die, or leave their childern free,
Bid Time and Nature gently spare
The shaft we raise to them and thee.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
The Concord Hymn
 
The question of which is more reliable, the AK or the AR is completely moot. It doesn't matter. The question that matters is whether or not the rifle issued to the troops is reliable given the logistical resources and training available to them.

The M16 family of rifles is designed to be issued to a well-trained, literate, and motivated volunteer force sitting at the pointy end of the spear with a reliable supply train backing them up and with competent transportation and logistical support. This means that Joe Grunt not only knows how to service his rifle, but he can rely upon getting enough lube, cleaner and widgets and down time in which to do it. As such, the M16 series can probably be described as reliable enough. If you figure you're just a truck driver and you skip maintenance for a month, you only have yourself to blame.

The AK series is designed to be shoved into the hands of conscript soldiers who are told which end the bullets come out of and not much else, and is likewise designed to be fielded without reliable maintenance and supply support for the trigger puller. Seeing as how the end users seem unaware of what the front sight is even for, I am guessing that these conditions have been met. Since the gun seemingly goes bang pretty often, it would also be described as reliable enough.

Is the AK probably more inherently reliable than the AR? Yeah, probably. But it doesn't matter. The US military's ability to produce trained troops and maintain order and discipline and keep supplies flowing eliminates any (real or imagined) shortfalls in reliability of the M16 series...thus making it 'reliable enough' and also allowing one to reap the benefits of issuing a very very accurate weapon- that being killing bad guys further away than they can kill you. (MOUT, of course, somewhat reduces this advantage)

If all else was equal, one might have a point of he picked an AR over an AK based upon reliability alone. Alas, not everything else is equal. Accuracy, ergonomics, weight (both of weapon and ammo), the range of engagement, and the deadliness of the round in question all vary...and in the end, it probably comes down to personal preference of individual users.

I'm an armchair commando, and I approve this message.

Mike

Coronach got it in one...:cool:

I've always thought the biggest failing of the M-16 series was in the ammunition. When the Russians went to the 5.45x39 round, they put some research into it and developed the "poison bullet"--a FMJ w/ a hollow tip, steel midsection, & lead "knocker" core that flew straight through the air & tumbled wildly when striking soft tissue. The "poison bullet" was widely respected by the Afghans in combat.

If the US would put a little more R&D into their combat ammo, I'm sure we could come up with better solutions that "light ball" and "heavy ball"...:scrutiny:

As for maintenance: Maintaining your rifle is crucial. But I'd like to have a "margin for error" built into mine for those times when you can't break everything down for a proper cleaning. Like war.

But I don't really care for the super-loose tolerances of the AK, either. While accuracy is mostly the function of the shooter, I prefer to eliminate as many mechanical variables as I can.

AR or AK--the truth lies somewhere between...:cool:
 
VG,

I've read the reports you sited and others. I will stand by my original comment, you got a hold of some bad information. It is important to note that several of the units involved in the major firefights were unavailable to participate in the AAR. 1-187th was the reserve and, while they did a commendable job once they were employed, they were not present for many, if not all, of the significant engagements.

JShirley,

81mm mortars were effective but not nearly as effective as the 60mm's. The 60mm mortar was the money-maker, no doubt about it.


I am just trying to clarify, not sharpshoot.
 
Hokay. Well, reports from sources as available as the Army Times , back in early 02, were reporting problems with units that only had the M224 on access, namely, being outranged by the 82mm.

As well, I can tell you from personal experience that the 60mm is considerably less accurate than the 80. <Shrug> The whole point the introduction of these weapons to this thread was to bolster, is that most kills are NOT made with the rifle.

John
 
Having used both around Alaska....the verdict is..Gimme a Lee Enfield

Can't argue with that! Though I'd take a Mosin-Nagant or Schmidt-Rubin myself. They don't make 'em like they used to. The great WWI and WWII battle rifles were built to survive years of continuous warfare, and even be used as fearsome spears and clubs when the ammo ran out.
 
John/VG,

In an effort to minimize the off-topic discussion, please feel free to PM me and I will be more than happy to share some insight into mortar usage in Operation Anaconda.

The whole point the introduction of these weapons to this thread was to bolster, is that most kills are NOT made with the rifle.

There can be little debate that the value of the mortar has been rediscovered by some (the rest of us knew it had value). I can't speak to the exact number of kills attributable to supporting arms (to include mortars) vs. small arms, but I can tell you that there are significant numbers of small arms engagements occuring in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Regardless of what is getting more kills, the rifle remains the most prevalent weapon system on the battlefield.
 
Here's an intellectual hand-grenade to throw into the mix:

Looking for a portable rifle with good stopping power? How about an M14 with a bush/scout length barrel? Reliable design, powerful cartridge, accurate.
 
In an effort to minimize the off-topic discussion, please feel free to PM me and I will be more than happy to share some insight into mortar usage in Operation Anaconda.

Could you start another thread somewhere instead? I'd like to read that, too.
 
Firstly let me state, I'm no soilder or LEO nor do I ever have any wish to be. If it came to that I would do what it takes to defend my country, but that doesnt mean I have to want it to come to that. My information comes from my uncle, who went into the sandbox the firsttime and is back over there again right now.


His opinion, was as follows:

He likes the M16, he has an AR-15 at home he pops coyotes with but he does have his reservations. He loves that its lightweight, and its high rate of fire. However his example of why he didnt like it went something like this, He appreciated everyone nomatter their occupation within the services needs to keep their issued weapon as clean as possible. However at times thats not always possible, if your a mechanic or a surgeon you could feasibly spend 18 hours straight without stop. No time to clean your weapon. The M16 doesnt have much tolerence for the gnitty gritty so when you get 'bushed and you have to fight. Your useless because your rifle has jammed. The M16 is accurate, light and very comfortable but at the expense of reliability and confidence. He expressed a good bit've worry over the reliability of his M4. He's an MP and said he gets to around to cleaning it whenever as soon as he can but there are times where he is doing something that requires his full attention without his rifle doing anything that concerns him.

His solution? He wants to see other 5.56 platforms before he decides if the M16 is really all that bad or if its just an issue with 'modern' rifles. He expressed interest in the SA80, the FNC and some South African bullpup whos name I cannot recollect. As for the 5.56's effectiveness, he didnt think so.

The issue there wasnt so much if the guy he shot was going to die, put any sized bullet into somone's torso and sooner or later they will be rendered combat ineffective. He felt confident with the .308's ability not just to kill somone, but to knock them on their ass and cause massive tissue damage there and then.


Personally, I say we should investigate something between a .308 and a .223. I know it'll never happen but I wonder in my own delusions about something like a .223WSSM, or a .243, or a .270. Why? Why not. I fail to see how a good hunting caliber doesnt make a good killing caliber. In Missouri your not allowed to hunt with anything below a .243. In addition, what about perhaps something like the Dragunov for our guys? A Squad issued sniper weapon thats -very- widely distributed. Wouldnt a .308 Bushmaster with something like a low glare 3-9x42 low light, with an illuminate recticle be effective or am I just being way off base? I'm not advocating replacing snipers at all, merely extending the range a squad can enguage at aswell as offering more flexibility.


On a side note: Why dont we issue M9s widely sorta like the Germans did with their pistols in WW2? I dont see why every soilder shouldnt have a sidearm(9mm vrs .45 wars can wait for another thread so lets just keep it too pistol or no pistol irrespective of caliber.)


God bless Uncle Jimmy. :)
 
Kacecoyote, good thoughts. Here is some information you probably did not know.

I say we should investigate something between a .308 and a .223.

Been/is being done. Search for references to the 6.8mm and 6.5mm Grendel.

A Squad issued sniper weapon thats -very- widely distributed.

Also been/being done. Units are issuing M-14's with a variety of optics as Designated Marksman's Rifles. It has not filtered all the way to the squad level yet.

He felt confident with the .308's ability not just to kill somone, but to knock them on their ass and cause massive tissue damage there and then.

Your Uncle is going to be looking fo a long time if he wants a round that knocks people on their ass. It just does not happen.
 
On a side note: Why dont we issue M9s widely sorta like the Germans did with their pistols in WW2? I dont see why every soilder shouldnt have a sidearm(

Pistols are expensive, and the training to shoot one profficiently is costly and time consuming. The pistol (in military circles) is reserved for those who have other jobs that don't involve front line contact, or for the operators of support weapons. The ratio of training and cost to the effectiveness of pistols is very poor.
 
Thanks Blackhawk, I dont pretend to be anything approaching tactical so I thank you for the corrections. Tony, thanks I'll read up in a moment here. Thanks Natedog, but didnt it work for the Nazis or am I getting the wrong idea?
 
Reguardless of that detail. They did "Rawk they world" for a good five years, and for a time its my impression they were the finest combat force in existance man for man...as far as a standard military went.
 
It seems to me (being a keyboard commando) that the answer lies in giving our troops a weapon that is more reliable than the M16/M4, but then continuing to instill in them the importance of maintenance. Why does everyone that says how great the AK is then imply they'd never clean it? I have a couple AKs and I clean them every time I use them and I don't bet my life on their function everyday like a soldier. Somebody here said they'd clean their AK pretty religiously in the combat zone if they were using one, that seems like the ticket... Give our guys the most reliable, yet accurate weapon we can come up with (I'm not suggesting we give them AKs, but something with a similar gas system setup seems ideal...), and still teach them to clean it religiously "just in case". Why settle for "reliable enough" counting heavily on that mainenance, if you could build a bit of a "buffer zone" into the equation?? The money spent on this will be pretty miniscule in the grand scheme of things... I guess the XM8 is purported to be doing exactly that, but perhaps it "fixes" a few too many things that perhaps ain't broke (yet)... Guess we'll see....
 
Alright well what about the .223WSSM? I know about the 6.8 Grendel but I'm more curious of the calibers above would proove effective manstoppers in the firstplace and secondly if they could work in an AR-15 based battle rifle.


Or yaknow we could go oldskool and just give everyone trap door .45-70s and tell'em to go play. :D
 
I got to spend the last couple of days with somebody who just got back from a year in Afghanistan. 1st bat 19th SF. He said that they had no real problems with thier M4s the whole time, and they got plenty of use.
 
Hokay. Well, reports from sources as available as the Army Times , back in early 02, were reporting problems with units that only had the M224 on access, namely, being outranged by the 82mm.

JShirley,
Be careful using quoted materials as your only reference, even from the Army times. Especially when the guy you are quoting to(BH6) was the CDR of the company that had the Times reporter embedded in his company, and was the only CDR to bring mortars into the valley on the initial days and who also had 81mm's co-located with his company when they did arrive. As for 82mm outranging 60mm's, I would say that yes it is physically possible, but in Anaconda and during my 18 months there it didn't happen for 2 reasons.
1) Lack of actual sights for the system precluded them from being used in anything but direct-lay/direct-alignment.
2) The dudes using the 82mm mortars were not trained on the system extensively, basically they know the rounds and the fact that they needed primers and charges to go bang, and that's about it.

Chances are if you read a newspaper article about mortar employment in Operation Anaconda, its about BH6.
 
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