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M&P9 25yd inaccuracy: Myth or Fact?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Jackal1, Feb 26, 2012.

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  1. Jackal1

    Jackal1 Member

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    I read a S&W interview in which they stated the M&P handguns were designed to shoot groups less than 3" at 25 yards.

    Pistol-Training did an endurance test of a M&P9 shooting 62,333 rds and then doing a post-test accuracy check in which the gun averaged groups of 1.83" at 25 yards with a cracked slide. http://pistol-training.com/archives/1252

    The M&P's that I've shot were all more accurate than I could shoot them.

    So... why are there lots of web posts regarding the M&P9 inaccuracy at 25 yards? Just do a Google search and you'll find some posts on various websites. Dig further and you'll find some more. Here's one: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=97829.

    Is this just a web phenomenon where people report that the gun is trash when it is just their poor shooting, or is there some truth to this. Are there some atrociously inaccurate M&P9's out there? (One report I saw mentioned 4" groups and another mentioned 8" groups at 25 yd).
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2012
  2. PO2Hammer

    PO2Hammer Member

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    I would suspect bad shooters, not bad pistols.

    So many people write about how inaccurate their buddie's 'brand X' pistol is. They get good with their pet pistol, then try 5 shots with something else and when they don't shoot it as well as their pet pistol, they declare it a POC.
     
  3. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    Agreed. Whereas I can't shoot any better than a 3" group at 25 yards with my M&P9, I had a buddy shoot multiple sub 2" groups.

    Some people don't like the stock trigger, and that could be a factor in the poor shooting as well. If an APEX kit was stock then I would expect to hear fewer complaints.
     
  4. 87Theworld

    87Theworld Member

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    It's most likely the shooters I find the 25 range a problem for me with any handgun I shoot. 8-20 ft I'm bullseye good 25-30 I'm mostly in the 7 ring. past that to a 100 and I'm shooting bullseye great again. That's with 22's, 9mm, and 45. I'm just do more shooting at the distance and improve on it.
     
  5. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    Everyone knows I am a big M&P fan. However that doesn't mean it doesn't have issues. Inconsistent accuracy IS one of the issues they are having. I don't mean inconsistent with one gun but inconsistent from one gun to the next.

    Mine has proven to be pretty accurate with a threaded barrel I can eat the center out of a Vickers target at 10 yards and stay in the black at 25. My friends is also pretty accurate. However I have seen a couple of them that shoot around 5MOA. And this is with a shooter that can drill the middle of the target on any day in any conditions.

    Newer production guns seem to be better and more consistent. However with M&Ps it is hard to immediately blame the shooter.
     
  6. RH45

    RH45 Member

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    They do put out a dog, once in a while. Out of my 3 M&Ps, 2 will do about 2" at 25 yards with ammo they like, but, the third one is more like 4-5":barf:
     
  7. 918v

    918v Member

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    The barrel to slide to frame fit is pretty loose. A lucky group here and there does not make the whole line 2" at 25 yards accurate.
     
  8. soapboxpreacher

    soapboxpreacher Member

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    I have had this first hand. I pitted mine against a rental gun. Both FS 9...I bought mine after two 150 round sessions at the range with the rental gun. Then I bought mine and could never shoot it to the tune of the rental. I bought sights, sight tool, and even got new glasses...no <deleted>!! After 18+ month of screwing arounf I decided to go back and rent the gun that sold me on the M&P to begin with! So I did a test and rented the gun once again as well as took mine in to shoot side by side. I put 50 round thru each. 21', 30', 45', 60', and 75' (I Suck at anything past 45' but still..I was much better on the rental gun then my own). Same targets, same ammo, etc. The results pissed me off! My gun is not nearly as accurate as the rental. I was having a ton of issues with mine past 15 yards!!! Even closer I had almost no flyers on the rental...group was tighter and so on! This little test was the only way to get closure on how I was shooting! The insult to this is the rental gun has a significant amount of rounds on it I am sure...not to mention a broken slide release on the right side. Mine has an APEX trigger as well. I am a little pissed and do not know how to address this with smith. In general most of the M&P I have seen are a little lose...maybe mine is more so...but man does this piss me off and burn my ass!

    Now I need to convince S&W of this. I could do it again and provide targets but this is getting expensive and more so inconvenient! I might see if I kept this target to send to smith...but who knows if this matters. I which I knew where to measure for tolerances on this gun. Might help but at this point I am a little burned and more then pissed! I have over 1300 round thru mine gun. So I dont really think it is me or the gun. The side by side comparison helped me understand it was not me after all. I am considering dumping it for a PPQ as I have told others. I shoot it much better and like the trigger even more on the PPQ. I am considering selling it but I have soooo much into this M&P, holster for IDPA, 6 mags, mag holster, APEX trigger, different sights (the original factory ones are back on it...and where for the side by side test). I planned on doing some IDPA but after getting my gun I questioned if I would do well. I did substantially better with the rental gun. I do tend to shoot a ton of different guns but overall have shoot mine more then the other and when you factor in all the rounds I have put thru an M&P9 it is approaching 2k...I think I have an idea of what the gun with do!

    I have to date shot an XDm 9, Px4, P30, 24/7 G2, PPQ, Baby Eagle, P250, P226, 92FS, CZ 75b, and a few others. All in 9mm and all with a minimum of 100 rounds...a good chunk of them with over 250 rounds or more. I settled on the M&P after a factory shoot some years ago. I tested many leading up to my purchase and skipped the M&P. That is when I read up on it and went back and rented it. First time (150 rounds) I was very good and impressed with what I could do with it. I was actually going to buy a Px4 storm...the one my buddies has that we shoot together on a regular basis along with an XDm. The three of us and a forth shoot at least once a month in the winter and then it is off to shotguns for clays in spring and fall... occasionally in the summer in doors when it is to hot we do a few times on the pistols on the summer. All in all a lot of time on a pistol. Of all the gun at the time leading up to my purchase the M&P after (2) 150 round session at the range...I shot it better than everything I had shot prior. Now with that said I didnt at the time have any experience with the CZ 75, Baby Eagle, 24/7, P30 or PPQ. I now shoot the Baby Eagle in either polymer or all steel better than any other gun I have ever shot in my life! It is a longer barrel and based on the CZ which is considered extremely accurate but still I was no slouch on the M&P rental. All in all this might help explain something that the tolerances are not perfect and my experience now and testing have helped me draw a better conclusion. I was at a lose for words...there is an issue with this gun...I dont believe it is the shooter...I took someone with me as well to help me make sure I wasnt nuts when I did the side by side. He shot as well with his own ammo but is not an M&P shooter to begin with so I did not pay attention to his results for he was all over the map with both! I will say I am not the best shooter but I have been far better on other guns as well as other M&P9. This I believe is a tolerance issue in manufacturing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2012
  9. ImReady77

    ImReady77 Member

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    This problem is talked about in depth on the m4carbine.net forum.
     
  10. soapboxpreacher

    soapboxpreacher Member

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  11. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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  12. 918v

    918v Member

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    Some of these M&Ps shoot as good as my P210 using the same ammo, and I have a better rest. Truly amazing.

    IMG_20111023_163002.jpg
     
  13. jawman

    jawman Member

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    This is really unfortunate. I want to purchase a full size M&P9 from G&R Tactical with all of the Apex bells & whistles installed. The risk is what if I get an inaccurate/poorly manufactured lemon, how do I get it fixed through S&W under warranty when I have aftermarket parts installed, if they even choose to recognize the problem at all? BOO S&W!! :(
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2012
  14. bds
    • Contributing Member

    bds Member

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    Well, S&W did fix the M&P trigger as of this summer. Gone are heavy trigger pulls with mushy trigger reset. Pistols with new triggers I handled had around 4.5 lbs (comparable to stock Glock trigger) with much cleaner reset - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=674250

    Mark Dix
    (413) 433-0619
    Email: mdix@smith-wesson.com
    Fax: (719) 213-2261

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7977264#post7977264
     
  15. jawman

    jawman Member

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    Thanks for the reply bds, but the spokesperson for S&W said that it was slated for April/May, which doesn't guarantee that the change has already been implemented, as in any business, there can be delays and things can change which pushes the timeframe back even later than originally mentioned, or could even be cancelled completely. Is there any current proof (not that I don't believe you, I just want to be sure) other than something one guy a S&W said 9 months ago?
     
  16. bds
    • Contributing Member

    bds Member

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    jawman, this is from the other thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=674250

     
  17. jawman

    jawman Member

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    Ah, didn't notice the first link and only clicked on the second. My bad.
    Now about the accuracy problems...has anyone from Smith mentioned this?
     
  18. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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  19. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Really? I just bought mine on Wed, and it is the absolute worst trigger I have ever used (although, granted, I haven't used that many). The pull is very mushy, can't even tell what is pre-travel and what is the actual pull. Feels like there's sand sprinkled in it. There are about 7 different clicks on the spongy reset and I'm not sure which one is the correct one.

    I went into getting the M&P knowing I was going to be spending money on the APEX trigger, so I'm not disappointed in my purchase, but I gotta say this trigger is absolutely terrible.
     
  20. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    My M&P 9L was "born" around December of 2010. I've not really shot it off a rest (except when chrono'ing but then I'm not testing accuracy) but generally it has grouped very well for me offhand with 147gr bullets (both hardcast and Bayou). Most reports seem to say that it always shot well with the heavier bullets though.

    When I first got it I shot a lot with 115 and 124gr bullets and I can honestly say that I had more accuracy trouble, but I'm still not sure if that was the gun's fault or if I just hadn't warmed up to it yet (most of those rounds were also fired with the stock trigger and most of my 147gr loads have been with an Apex trigger).

    Regardless, I'll likely migrate to the Apex/Bar-sto fitted barrel once those are released, but until then mine is running ok for my purposes with the stock barrel.
     
  21. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    Hilton's test in post #18 is a good read. He is very high on the KKM barrel and that would be the route I'd take if the stock barrel wasn't up to a nice 25 yard group.

    I just had my M&P9 out a couple of days ago and wasn't disappointed in it's performance at 20-25 yards (I didn't measure). I was testing a new grip modification and the lateral dispersion was due to shooter error
     
  22. rodinal220

    rodinal220 Member

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    Fact:Team S&W runs hard fitted Storm Lake barrels in their FS 9mm guns for a reason,thats a clue.

    The accuracy issue is with the FULL SIZE(FS) 9mm guns only.Not compacts or Shields or 357 Sig,40S&W,45acp.

    Some folks get pistols with good accuracy,some with mediocre and some with poor,its a crap shoot.Why??Well thats the mystery isn't it.

    Most folks I know love their M&P pistol after they swap out to a custom barrel and replace half the pistol with APEX parts.

    My personal FS Range Kit M&P 9mm(March 2012 mfg/new style barrel) shoots patterns and vertically strings from time to time.The best "grouping" I achieved is about 4" at 7 yards,after that its pointless to shoot the gun.Sent the gun to S&W and they returned it saying it was "in spec" I would like to know if their spec is one minute of garbage can lid.All my shooting was done with 115/124gr standard pressure type factory ammo.

    If my other 9mm guns like Sig P226,BHP,HK USP/P7, XD/XDm,Glock shoot well out to 25 yards,and beyond,please do not tell me its me.
    I expect 3-4" with a service style pistol with average types of training/duty ammo at 25 yards.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  23. Manco

    Manco Member

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    I'm not sure about other potential accuracy issues with the M&P9 (full size), but I can confirm that some of these pistols have an issue with premature unlocking. I've briefly examined one that unlocks practically as soon as the slide moves (at all), and this is definitely a problem. It is likely the cause of the cases of gross inaccuracy that we've read about, and maybe some or virtually all of the others as well.

    This issue does not affect all examples of this model, and is a non-issue with the other calibers as well as the compacts and other variants of all calibers.

    The problem seems to have become less prevalent with the new barrel, but I still hear/read about it occasionally, even with newly manufactured M&P9s.

    Wouldn't they use the most accurate barrels anyway? I think the kind of gross inaccuracy we're talking about here is the result of one or more defects, as opposed to a slight lack of inherent accuracy. Aside from the unit mentioned above, the M&P9s I've shot have been reasonably accurate.

    It's hard to tell how accurate a pistol model is, statistically, with all of the variables involved. All I know is that some M&P9s have a poor barrel fit to the point where they unlock before the bullet exits the barrel, and that is clearly bad for accuracy. This may well be a consequence of the M&P9 design, for which a rather tight tolerance (tighter than you'll get with a service pistol) is required to ensure reasonable combat accuracy (by most people's standards) for all units, or so I've been told. I see no such issues with the M&P40 design, but the M&P9 is a bit different in how it locks the barrel and slide, and I have not had the opportunity to study it closely to confirm.
     
  24. jawman

    jawman Member

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    <edit>. Why is S&W ignoring this? They know this is a problem yet they are continuing to sell ineffective products that they know are inadequate.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2012
  25. bds
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    bds Member

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    jawman, my guess is that there is still a lot of "old stock" M&P 9/40 models around that are still being sold as they are replaced by new M&P models with lighter/cleaner trigger from S&W.

    Handling the new trigger M&P models was good enough for me to make me sell off my M&P40/45 to replace with new models. Front sights of several models I tried did not move when I released the strikers (which is the final criteria I use for buying a new pistol). In comparison, when I tested new Glock models (and I am a Glock fanboy), some of the front sights "jumped" when I released the strikers.

    I really think S&W did the right thing by fixing the M&P triggers.
     
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