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M1 Carbine or Camp 45?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Dr_2_B, Dec 7, 2012.

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M1 Carbine or Ruger Camp 45?

Poll closed Oct 3, 2013.
  1. M1 carbine

    171 vote(s)
    81.8%
  2. Camp 45

    35 vote(s)
    16.7%
  3. Try as I might, I just can't reduce my answer to one of the above. Please see my response below

    3 vote(s)
    1.4%
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  1. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    I voted M1 by a mile, but if you had a .45 carbine that was light, handy, reliable, took modern high cap magazines and was chambered for the .460 Rowland, you MIGHT change my mind...

    I helped cut four mangled bodies out of a Volvo a few years back, does that prove that Volvo's are unsafe?
    The most likely cause of an M1 Carbine firing out of battery would probably be a high primer or stuck firing pin, either one can happen in any semi or full auto weapon and either one can usually be prevented by proper maintenance and using quality ammunition.

    Sooo... A brand new Kahr/Auto Ordinance M1 instead of a 1943 Inland in good condition and with a few springs changed out...who's side are you on here anyway? :)
     
  2. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    I'd probably take the M1 carbine, they're about an ideal rifle for me by design

    But I always wanted a Camp Carbine to play around with, I wouldn't turn one down.
     
  3. DurangoKid

    DurangoKid Member

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    I have a WWII Veteran M1 Carb. Quality Hardware. I shoot cast bullet loads in the little rifle most of the time. There are a number of M1 Carb. shooters at our gun club. They are shooting modern Repos of the M1 Carb. The WWII rifles are much better regardless of there age. I have never in 50 years of using an M1 ever seen one blow out in any ones face. I would choose the M1 Carb over most other Semi Auto light rifles.
     
  4. stiab

    stiab Member

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    Hurt it compared to what? The 4 inch barrel is the same effective length as a full size 1911 whose 5" barrrel includes the chamber. The 625 results were not low, they were what you would expect from manufacturers published tables. When I return home in a couple days, I'll post the auctual increases gained from the Marlin carbine, and you can see the significant improvements accomplished.
     
  5. kBob

    kBob Member

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    I would love to have a marlin Camp 45.

    But

    If I had neither and had to choose between the two I would pick the .30 M1 Carbine US GI over the Marlin.

    I did pass up a steal about a year ago on a Carbine because even though it was a steal it was a commercial gun. I have seen and used Commercial M-1s that ran fine but others that ran fine for a few rounds.... sometimes.....maybe with the magazine it came with.

    I voted M1 Carbine of the two.

    -kBob
     
  6. Doc Savage

    Doc Savage Member

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    While a 30 carbine is one of my favorite rifles, loved my brothers. I voted for the 45. 30 carbine ammo is next to impossible to find readily around here (and I don't order ammo), gun without ammo is useless. 45 I can readily find at walmart and other places. I have an HP 9mm carbine to go with my S&W 6909 pistol and considering my next purchase being an HP 45 carbine to go with my S&W 4563. Like to have a carbine that shares ammo with my pistols.

    Robert
     
  7. rondog

    rondog Member

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    Can't put a toadstabber on a Camp 45, or a stock pouch with two extra mags, probably no sling either. And there's no way one could look this good on a wall either.

    wallcropped.jpg

    Oh, and the "firing out of battery" is a common problem with later models of Universal brand carbines. Those were aftermarkets, and the early ones were mostly USGI parts. But later vintage models were built with parts that Universal made, and those have a reputation as unreliable and dangerous. Not all aftermarket M1 Carbines were bad though, I have a Plainfield that will shoot circles around both my USGI Carbines.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  8. Jeff B.
    • Contributing Member

    Jeff B. Member

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    M1 as well. I've got one (Saginaw) that's a great shooter. I've not fired a Camp Carbine, so I'm simply basing my preference on what I know. The point that was made about finding .45 ammo vs .30 Cal Carbine is pretty good.

    I wish I had bought at least one more M1 Carbine when the CMP still had them.

    Jeff B.
     
  9. kBob

    kBob Member

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    Part of my reasoning was based on a little Marlin shooting and a lot of Carbine shooting as well, but was in a hurry and did not explain. I felt the Marlin Camp45 had greater felt recoil and more "jump" than an M-1 as well.

    I live in Florida and many folks at least in my youth successfully hunted and shot our small white tail deer with the carbine. Not at all sure a .45 ACP launched from anything would be as successfull. I understand there is basically no gain in velocity for factory ammunition in the Camp45 over full sized 1911 handguns and do not see many folks hunting with those.

    Also I like the GI carbine's sights much more than the "issue" Camp 45 sights.

    It has been a while but I seem to recall that a M-1 Carbine with a 15 round loaded magazine weighs less than a Camp 45 with an eight round .45 mag in place.

    I did and do like the idea of a "rifle" that can take my 1911 mags and my reloads, but as a nice to have sort of thing mainly for plinking with.

    The not ordering ammo by mail thing does make the M-1 a bit harder to feed if one does not reload themselves. I believe CMP is carrying PMC ammo on occassion and a can or two of that will last one a while. I have not seen enough feed back on the steel case stuff from Russia in USGI carbines but it is out there or has been. Auguilla makes ammo for it again available in bulk by mail. There is a section on CMP's site o reloading and an assessment of some commercial ammo.

    As for self defense...in a handgun I love .45ACP.....but I have seen Dr. Fackler's presentation showing the effects of a .30 carbine hunting round on a human and if I had to use a stocked rifle in self defense and the choices where any .45 ACP rifle and a M-1 Carbine the carbine wins hands down. It also helps in my choice that atleast for the couple of years I met with Dr. Fackler regularlly that his household defensive gun was an M-1 Carbine.

    One might also check Marshall and Sanows work regaurding one shot stop data for even the best .45ACP from a handgun verses even plain Jaine FMJ .30 carbine from an M-1. I beleive you will find the M-1 Carbine wins and is the Marlin does not add something significant to the .45ACP bullets speed .......

    I think I got it all now.

    -kBob
     
  10. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    Me too. If I had just KNOWN that they were a rarity I would have bought however many I could have, and then sent the Mrs in to buy a load as well.

    I find it retail and I can walk into the CMP and buy a case. Last time they had Lake City for the same price as Aguila, so I bought the last case of LC and a case of the Aguila while I was at it, on sale during the national matches.
    It isn't that hard to find, although the "I don't order ammo" bit might make finding anything interesting harder. There's more to shooting than what you can buy at WalMart or the big-box "sporting goods" shop.
     
  11. Eaglestroker

    Eaglestroker Member

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    I am relatively new to the 30 carbine, but I would take that rifle over the Camp 45's I've handled. I order the Aguila ammo from CMP for $208/500 shipped. If I could just find a 30 carbine Blackhawk....:)

    E926FCFC-B3FF-44FD-BD3D-9EE9DDDC8111-2689-00000266224F859F.jpg
     
  12. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    Originally posted by rondog
    My Plainfield would outshoot any military M1 Carbine that I've ever fired...

    Until I put a telescoping wire stock on it... :banghead:
     
  13. Axel Larson

    Axel Larson Member

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    The carbine has a better cartridge for all around use.
     
  14. mdauben

    mdauben Member

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    I've only seen a Camp .45 in real life once. The example I saw would jam at least once per magazine. I'm not sure how representative this is of the gun in general, but I'd be hesitant to trust it for any serious useage without more positive experience.
     
  15. stiab

    stiab Member

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    I'm back home now and have the ammo test results from shooting .45acp in a Camp Carbine, and no longer have to rely upon my sometimes faulty memory. There were a total of 10 loads tested, 9 were factory and 1 was reloaded. Of those, 3 different loads averaged above 1100 fps, and 2 others averaged above 1000 fps. I think most posters would agree that is pretty fast for a .45acp.

    The largest increase in velocity from the carbine over the handgun was 251 fps, and the least increase was 74 fps. The actual results for each load are set out below. The first number in brackets is the average from the S&W 4 inch barrel Model 625, the second number is the average from the Camp Carbine, and the third number is the amount of increase.

    Rem 230 HP [836][914][+78]
    Rem 230 FMJ [798][872][+74]
    PMC 230 FMJ [872]951][+79]
    MagTech 230 FMJ [856][1022][+166]
    Win 185 ST [918][1139][+221]
    Fed 230 FMJ [834][956][+122]
    Win 230 "Clean" [845][1061][+216]
    RP 200 Trunk [960][1154][+194]
    Win 230 FMJ [821][960][+139]
    Reload 6.8 Unique 225 grain solid lead [892][1143][+251]

    I think these test results show two things. First, the 625 velocities were what would be expected for a full size .45acp handgun, and secondly that significant increases in velocity can be achieved in a .45acp carbine over the handgun. I am not recommending the Camp Carbine over the M1, just pointing out the improved performance from the carbine.
     
  16. Dr_2_B

    Dr_2_B Member

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    Interesting numbers Stiab. Thanks for posting
     
  17. rswartsell

    rswartsell Member

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    What a lot of divergant crap. Several posts about how to make the .45 ACP a carbine round? Seriously?

    I'm a very BIG fan of .45 ACP for 1911's!

    As a carbine round? You lose! The .30 Carbine in ANY barrel over 5" is FAR superior. Then you get into comparing to a .357 in a lever carbine. Well thats outside of the OP's dimensions, ain't it?
     
  18. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    Really?
    When there have been numerous posts saying that no velocity increase from the longer barrel could be expected (which is pretty much what I've always believed).
    I learned something from the data in that post.

    A decided contrast to yours, which merely stated opinion, and not particularly well.

    Do you honestly believe that a .30 carbine with a 5.1 inch barrel would be superior as a defensive weapon to a 5 inch barrel .45 acp? Because that's pretty much what you said.

    You can go buy a CZ-52.

    I'm going to run some chrono tests for myself.
     
  19. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    Between the two, I would go with an M1 Carbine over a Marlin Camp Carbine. It's a proven design that has performed very well in diverse conditions throughout the world for any number of years. The only thing I would prefer would be to have an M1A1 Carbine instead of the fixed stock version.
     
  20. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    Delete-Double post
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  21. krupparms

    krupparms Member

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    I have owned both. I would pick the M1 carbine. More rounds &better combat carbine! With the right loads it's great for plinking if you reload. It was the first gun I reloaded for &I learned alot from it. :)
     
  22. rswartsell

    rswartsell Member

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    Swampman, what I am getting at is simply this. For carbine applications the .30 Carbine is obviously superior. Sorry that was lost on you. If you disagree, knock yourself out on .45 acp carbines. I don't care. Just don't expect to sell me on any proposition that you are getting better or even equal performance.

    If it's important to you to "win" a rhetorical argument, you can have that too. Just give me the .30 carbine.

    For handgun applications, I will reverse field and go the other way. In a handgun the .30 Carbine doesn't earn (justify) all the downside.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
  23. jeepnik

    jeepnik Member

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    Which is better, probably not enough difference to matter.

    However, from a strictly gut level, I'd have to say the Camp 45. My reason is simply my Dad.

    An armored troop in Europe he employed both the M1 carbine and Thompson. He cussed the carbine and praised the Thompson. From someone who employed them for their intended use, you can't get a better opinion.

    Now I grant you that the ball ammo used in both isn't the most spectacular in performance, and you likely could get better effect with today's hollow point .30 carbine ammo. Still, you will also get a good improvement in effectiveness from today's .45 ammo.

    One thing he did say was that the Thompson was a lot heavier, but since he rode most of the time, it didn't matter.

    I haven't looked at weight specs on both the M1 and the Camp 45, but I'd guess they are much closer than the M1 and the Thompson.
     
  24. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    I suspect if the Camp 45 were able to fire 800 RPM of 45ACP it too would be as "effective" as a full auto Thompson.
    The .30 carbine round is flatter shooting and the carbine has better range.
    The M-2 was a full auto variant.
    The Thompson is a submachine gun.
    The carbine would be a PDW by today's standards.
    The Thompson was great in streetfighting, as was the carbine to a degree.
    But if you really really needed to reach out and touch someone you needed the M1 Garand.
     
  25. J_McLeod

    J_McLeod Member

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    I would get the M1 for the longer range.
     
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