josiewales
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Ancient? Really? There may be tools that are better for the job but obviously he is not going to be using it in a combat situation.
M1 Garand as Designated Marksman Rifle
- Thread starter lefteyedom
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Ancient? Really? There may be tools that are better for the job but obviously he is not going to be using it in a combat situation.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
HKGuns, my post were right on target. First spare me how many dead Japanese, Germans or anyone else were left dead on the battlefield as a result of the M1 Garand. I am well aware of those numbers. Since you have a Garand (nice looking one at that) you certainly should know what each elevation and windage clicks represents on the standard sights. Next, during development of the M1 Garand before it even was the M1 Garand the War Department requirement was the new rifle would be able to place 10 shots inside 4" at 100 yards. Are you familiar with the development of the rifle including the early .276 Pederson chamberings? That would seem to be 4 MOA as a requirement which is what I focused on. Specifications is what I posted, not what my rifles are capable of. Most M1 Garands will shoot better than the requirements but that is here nor there as it is not true of all rifles. The fact that your rifle exceeds specifications really comes as no surprise. So tell me if your rifle was to shoot 2" low and 2" Left at 100 yards what would you do with your sights to compensate?Build and convert? You could very easily and effectively use mine dead bone stock. People haven't changed since WW2 it will put them down just like it did then.
Edit: reloadron, you should check yourself before posting nonsense. There are a lot of dead German and Japanese soldiers who would argue differently. Also, I don't know where you're getting the Garand is 4 MOA as both my rifles perform better, but even 4 MOA is a dead human, center of mass. Ancient? oh brother.
Next, did you even read the original first post in this thread? Just to get a small handle on what the thread is about? If you read my post they were at least on target as to what the thread is about. However, thank you for taking the time to edit your post to tell me I am clueless. That stupid dead German and Japanese phrase has been tossed around forever.
So beyond slamming me and posting a lovely picture of your Garand do you have anything constructive to add to the thread?
Ron
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ApacheCoTodd
member
Of course - one serious flaw in the concept/argument/discussion is, barring re-barreling or sweating in "Navy Sleeves" one is left with a 30-06 so rather than using M-21/M-24 .308 or delinking MG ammo you burden the supply chain with an otherwise obsolete round.
Nice photo of your antique rifle. Let's cut the pasture droppings and just tell the OP to rechamber it for 308, install a magazine kit for 20 rounds, loose the wood for a lighter stock, install better sights and put a NM chamber in it. OH, they have already done that, it's called a M-14 and at last look they were being reissued. But I think you will see more AR-10's being issured to replace the M-14's. Running around with what looks like a sniper rifle will shorten your life span in the field.
just my view on the issue.
Jim
just my view on the issue.
Jim
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Apache & Jim,
Damn, that's right we need to toss in a match .308 barrel. While I like the M1A / M14 approach that is what the Designated Marksman Rifle in the original post actually is. Hell, not sure if we can even do the BM59 conversion.
Seriously, I agree 100% with what you guys have had to say and Jim despite them being antiques I still find myself drawn to old (ancient) pumper type fire trucks. I will also admit enjoying shooting my ancient trapdoor. Someday I really want a fire truck though.
While there are much better and certainly more accurate rifles to choose from today and the AR10 comes to mind as a .308 rifle, I do enjoy shooting many of the older rifles, including the Garand. Then too, I am not dragging one through a battlefield.
Ron
Damn, that's right we need to toss in a match .308 barrel. While I like the M1A / M14 approach that is what the Designated Marksman Rifle in the original post actually is. Hell, not sure if we can even do the BM59 conversion.
Seriously, I agree 100% with what you guys have had to say and Jim despite them being antiques I still find myself drawn to old (ancient) pumper type fire trucks. I will also admit enjoying shooting my ancient trapdoor. Someday I really want a fire truck though.
While there are much better and certainly more accurate rifles to choose from today and the AR10 comes to mind as a .308 rifle, I do enjoy shooting many of the older rifles, including the Garand. Then too, I am not dragging one through a battlefield.
Ron
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Naw, I have a .308 barrel sitting here for an M1 Garand. Still new dated 04-97. Never got around to using it.
Ron
Reloadron
Contributing Member
What is the nonsense and what do you have to contribute to the thread? Still a nice looking rifle you have there.
Ron
C-grunt
Member
I would say an accurate barrel, forward mounted scope and a detachable box magazine and you're good to go.
For DMR purposes you are going to want a minimum of 2 MOA with sub MOA being preferred. The DM role has him making shots out to 800 meters or so and also taking precise shots at closer range. A good barrel and at least a 4x scope are needed for this. I think a good 2-10 would be better but that's not really possible on the Garand with how it loads.
Next would be the box magazine. The standard 8 round clip fed mag is just to small. Another requirement of the DM is that they are still a rifleman for the squad. A DM is still expected to clear houses and do all the normal duties of a regular rifleman.
The Garand can do the job but definitely isn't the best or even a very good option. I don't like to carry less than 300 rounds on me and that is going to be bulky and weigh a lot if its 30-06.
For DMR purposes you are going to want a minimum of 2 MOA with sub MOA being preferred. The DM role has him making shots out to 800 meters or so and also taking precise shots at closer range. A good barrel and at least a 4x scope are needed for this. I think a good 2-10 would be better but that's not really possible on the Garand with how it loads.
Next would be the box magazine. The standard 8 round clip fed mag is just to small. Another requirement of the DM is that they are still a rifleman for the squad. A DM is still expected to clear houses and do all the normal duties of a regular rifleman.
The Garand can do the job but definitely isn't the best or even a very good option. I don't like to carry less than 300 rounds on me and that is going to be bulky and weigh a lot if its 30-06.
lefteyedom
Member
Gentlemen, civility please.
This was not a question of what weapon should be the current issued DMR for American combat troops.
This is an exercise in what is possible starting with a M1 Garand. There are other historical weapons that this question could be put to. What about a 1917 Enfield? would it have been better if the barrel had been cut back to 22" and a detachable magazine added? What could have made a BAR better?
My Grandfather swore that Mohammad Ali could not have lasted 2 rounds with Joe Louis. My Dad swore that George Foreman could have clean the floor with Mike Tyson. Every generation has it heroes. All where great in their time.
This was not a question of what weapon should be the current issued DMR for American combat troops.
This is an exercise in what is possible starting with a M1 Garand. There are other historical weapons that this question could be put to. What about a 1917 Enfield? would it have been better if the barrel had been cut back to 22" and a detachable magazine added? What could have made a BAR better?
My Grandfather swore that Mohammad Ali could not have lasted 2 rounds with Joe Louis. My Dad swore that George Foreman could have clean the floor with Mike Tyson. Every generation has it heroes. All where great in their time.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
lefteyedom, yeah well, and I was in your grandfathers corner on that one.
Good suggestions posted as to the possible options.
Ron
Good suggestions posted as to the possible options.
Ron
eastbank
Member
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- Jul 30, 2009
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at a black hat shoot a man came with a remington 7400 in 308 with a 3x9 leupold scope and out to 500yds shot 7-9 inch groups with factory federal 150gr bullets. the only trouble he had was dialing in the elevation,but after that he was alright. if he had a scope with mildots or clicks he would have done fine. eastbank.
ApacheCoTodd
member
There was someone back 10 years or so selling a "scout" style scope mount for Garands. I don't seem to see them anymore.
That mount, .308 conversion (I've always been OK with "Navy Sleeves"), Ram Line synthetic stock and a muzzle brake. I have a Smith brake like this one on my "tanker" and a couple M-14s. Works well in firing and is a valuable semi permanent bore guide for cleaning as well.
That mount, .308 conversion (I've always been OK with "Navy Sleeves"), Ram Line synthetic stock and a muzzle brake. I have a Smith brake like this one on my "tanker" and a couple M-14s. Works well in firing and is a valuable semi permanent bore guide for cleaning as well.
Attachments
Reloadron
Contributing Member
ApacheCoTodd, I have a question for you. I have never used the "Navy Sleeve" which to my way of thinking amounts to a chamber adapter. Actually, never used any chamber adapters. My thinking here is if I want a chamber cut in .308 I'll use a .308 barrel. If I place a 150 grain FMJ round beside a 150 grain 30-06 round and note the difference in height I figure that difference amounts to bullet jump. The distance a bullet travels before it engages the lands and groves of the barrel. That will impact the overall accuracy to my way of thinking. While how much bullet jump is acceptable I just see a chamber adapter for use in a match grade rifle as too much.
Since in this case we are looking at an M1 Garand I would likely run with a good match grade barrel like a Krieger that was short chambered. Then use a pull through finishing reamer to get the headspace perfect for the individual rifle with its bolt.
I am not knocking a chamber adapter but merely questioning its use in a match grade sniper rifle platform.
Ron
ApacheCoTodd
member
It's certainly not THE way to go, just A way to go. I've had two surplus (maybe adapted for line throwing?) Garands with the sleeves in them and they performed better than expected and I would have no doubt let them be but both the barrels were rather collectible in their original state so out came the sleeves and after a chamber buff-up everything was A-OK again.
For what it's worth - one of them was tuned up to the degree and quality of a military match armorer's work and shot accordingly but I completely get your take on the lack of initial commitment that the projectile received with the adaptor.
For what it's worth - one of them was tuned up to the degree and quality of a military match armorer's work and shot accordingly but I completely get your take on the lack of initial commitment that the projectile received with the adaptor.
Ash
Member
I'm not sure what exactly makes the Garand antique in the role. Would there be better? Sure. Would I accept a time-transported World War II Marine Raider rated high Expert with a Garand using one as a designated marksman today? Why not?
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