M16 Vs M14

[tark]

Yes the M14 and M16/M4 both have their place. And for civilian shooters it boils down to personal preference. And I will never look down on people for choosing one over the other when it comes to the M14 or M16.

And to be honest, my primary issue weapon for most of my time as lower enlisted (E1 thru E4) was the M60 machine gun. And I actually liked the M60 even though it was a heavy pig.

Ahhhh....Yes! The Pig! I was 45 Bravo in Germany, Small Arms Repair. The 60 was a high maintenance gun because it was often handled by soldiers who weren't properly trained. I forgot how many feed covers I had to fix because some idiot insisted on ramming the cover closed with the bolt in the forward position. . I had to re-rivet a bazillian magazine brackets. We automatically replaced all springs when one came in the shop.

But once you got one running right it was a fine weapon.

 

[12Bravo20]

By the time I got to Germany I has reclassed from 12B combat engineer to 44E machinist. As a machinist, I worked a lot with the 45B's. I was even allowed to do depot level repairs. Command decided it was easier and faster to have me do the work versus sending weapons back to state side depots.

And you are correct about the M60 getting tore up by troops that were not properly trained on the Pig. I got lucky as a young private and had an old Vietnam vet train me on the 60. He was a door gunner during the war.

And I am willing to bet that some of the problems the M14 had during Desert Storm was do to lack of proper maintenance along with a lack of proper training.

 

[PWC]

Well this thread covers a lot of ground from McNamara and his band to the Army in condemnation. I'm not going to rehash all that, but there is good info from a Marine, Maj DEick Culver, who was involved in the Viet Nam problems and the local fixes and ultimately the gov't recognition and final fix. In 2 parts....

http://www.jouster2.com/Sagaof16Part1.html


http://www.jouster2.com/Sagaof16Part2.html

 

[entropy]

By the time I got to Germany I has reclassed from 12B combat engineer to 44E machinist. As a machinist, I worked a lot with the 45B's. I was even allowed to do depot level repairs. Command decided it was easier and faster to have me do the work versus sending weapons back to state side depots.

And you are correct about the M60 getting tore up by troops that were not properly trained on the Pig. I got lucky as a young private and had an old Vietnam vet train me on the 60. He was a door gunner during the war.

And I am willing to bet that some of the problems the M14 had during Desert Storm was do to lack of proper maintenance along with a lack of proper training.

We had an Armorer in my BN put about half the gas pistons in backwards on the M60's they received from Anniston. They had just reactivated, so they got new/rebuilt weapons and oddly enough, Jeeps instead of Humvees.
He also forgot to bring his Armorer's kit with him when they went to the range to fire them the first time. Luckily, I tagged along to get some M60 trigger time, and I brought my kit. Got a Commendation for that, and an insistence for their CO that I accompany them to the range from then on.

 

[Ignition Override]

Because we don’t know what the typical skirmish distance will be in our next war—

Why not have a good fraction of available rifles with better power /. distance than 5.56? Whatever the correct terminology .

This is a simple question, Not an argument.

Sidenote: I reviewed how many Tens of Thousands of M-14s were destroyed or given away by Bill Clinton.

 

[LiveLife]

Because we don’t know what the typical skirmish distance will be in our next war—

Why not have a good fraction of available rifles with better power /. distance than 5.56?

That's why US military is looking to switch to new 6.8mmx51 with 135 gr bullet pushed to 3000 fps at 80,000 PSI - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/h...-you-have-to-buy-your-own-ammunition-that-is/

 

[C-grunt]

A standard US Army infantry platoon consists of M4 (5.56) carbines, M249 (5.56) belt fed machine guns, M240 (7.62) belt fed machine guns, and M110A1 (7.62) DMRs. Add in grenade launchers, rockets, and 60mm mortars and they have bad breathe distances to 1500+ meters covered.

The Marines have deviated from the old ways a lot over the last few years so I have no idea how they run anymore.

 

[AlexanderA]

And you are correct about the M60 getting tore up by troops that were not properly trained on the Pig.

I own an M60. (It's an RIA rebuild on a Maremont trunnion.) Anyway, in the late 1980's, I was invited to bring the gun to a timeline-style reenactment at the U.S. Soldier's Home in the District. A couple of actual Vietnam veterans were supposed to shoot the gun (with blanks, of course) as part of the demonstration. Well, after the first burst, it jammed. (These are tricky to adapt for blanks, it you're not using the issue BFA.) Following their training, they stood the gun on its butt end and stomped on the charging handle. This didn't clear the jam. Instead, it bent the charging handle and dented the lower channel. I was able to repair the damage, but the gun is not pristine any more. And this after I had gone to the trouble to put electrical tape on the feed cover, hoping to prevent the usual scratches. Expensive lesson learned.

Compared to the old M1919 Browning workhorse (which I also happen to own), the M60 is fragile. There are all sorts of ways to damage it. If I had to go with just one of the two, I would go with the Browning.

 

[Ignition Override]

LiveLife. True.

A shame, I suppose, that we didn't have the 6.8 or plenty of M-14s available -before- we invaded Afghanistan.

Alexander A:
The M60 didn't borrow any critical component design (or interface) from the old German MG 34 or 42?

 

[AlexanderA]

Alexander A:
The M60 didn't borrow any critical component design (or interface) from the old German MG 34 or 42?

The bolt / op rod system came from the old Lewis gun, via the German FG 42.
The feed system came from the MG 42.

This was cobbled together with design ideas from all over the place.

 

[lysanderxiii]

The bolt / op rod system came from the old Lewis gun, via the German FG 42.
The feed system came from the MG 42.

This was cobbled together with design ideas from all over the place.

Actually, it is a combination of the MG 34 and the MG 42. If you look carefully at the feed pawls in the feed cover of an MG 42, you will see that there are two sets of feed pawls (attached to # 8 and 9) .This greatly reduces the stress on the feed components, but, it's more parts. The MG 34 had a much simpler system just like the M60, but the parts were machined rather than stamped. So, the M60 works like an MG 34, but it manufactured like an MG 42.


MG 42 feed system



M60 feed system, subtle difference, but it makes a big difference.

 

[Reloadron]

M16 Vs M14

I trained and qualified with the M14 rifle USMC 1969 MCRD San Diego and Edson Range Camp Pendleton CA. . When I eventually got to Vietnam April 1972 we were issued the M16A1. Each rifle had its merits. The M14 obviously larger and heavier as is the ammunition. However, reach out and touch at 500 meters I'll take the M14. The M16 easy carry and lighter ammunition and well suited for most of the shorter range contact in Vietnam I don't recall a target at more than 200 yards. Today I enjoy shooting my M1A an older SA match rifle but also have several AR15 rifles I enjoy, including a few 70s vintage Colt SP1 rifles so my nostalgia is alive and well. I would guess whatever is the better rifle depends on the intended application like choosing a hunting rifle for the game and terrain.

Just My Take
Ron

 

[Robert]

This has been interesting but we appear to have wandered far off topic for at least the last page or so.