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M1A Question

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by ExAgoradzo, Oct 19, 2019.

  1. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    The M14 is absolutely not more reliable than the AR/M16.

    The M14 was tested in 1968 and found to have a Mean Rounds Between Failure of 599 rounds.
    https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/m14-rifle-question-1
    Even in 1968, against pre-A1 M16s, the M14 wasn't necessarily more reliable.This was tested down in Panama and the military concluded that direct comparison was difficult, but there were conditions under which the M16 proved to be more reliable than the M14, and this was back when they were still trying to work out the propellant issues with the original "Mattel Deathtraps."
    The M16 is a pretty tightly closed system that tends to prevent the entrance of mud and debris into the receiver, whereas the M14 is an open system that invites mud and debris into the system. InRange TV on Youtube did mud tests with the M1 and various AR15s, the it wasn't even close. The ARs blew the M1 out of the water:
    1960s Colt SP-1 AR-15

    More modern AR-15

    M1 Garand (SPOILER: it ain't pretty)

    French MAS , M1A, and AR in a slightly different style of mud test

    Crane tested the M4 with the standard carbine length gas system and with the midlength gas system and found the Mean Rounds Between Failure to be 836 for the carbine length gas system and 1993 for the midlength gas system. My Colt 6960 is a lot better representation to the quality and performance of the military rifles than the Springfield Armory M1A is to the M14. In other words, the M1A is of inferior quality to the military M14s whereas there are many AR15s that are equal to or better than the military rifles in every respect. So the short answer is no, the M1A is not likely to be more reliable than an AR15. Now an AR10, with its lack of standardization, is another issue. But in my experience, that too is likely to not end well for the M1A.
    http://soldiersystems.net/2018/05/1...s-system-testing-shows-increased-performance/
     
  2. peyton

    peyton Member

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    I think there is two items to consider, what is the range your targets are at and how much will you be shooting? I think the 308 will really shine beyond 200 yards, the mini 14 is fine below that.
     
  3. ExAgoradzo

    ExAgoradzo Member

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    from the video...

    “Some bean counter cost American lives... $2.50 cleaning kit”!
    I love my country. We do stupid stuff sometimes...

    greg
     
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  4. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    I mean I simply have to disagree about the reliability. Those " boys playing in the mud" videos are fine but two of my great uncles carried the M1 in France and Korea, and you know, its funny, I don't recall any complaining about the " open system" causing problems in battle. My relative fought and walked across the entire country of France on foot, my other talked about what it was like to dive down in a lake to get away from Chinese machine gun.
    Aside from them, there are the quotes from marines in Korea and from General Patton to attest to the reliability of the M1.
    Second, during manual of arms, if we are being honest there are far more hiccups with an AR15 than with an M1 or M14. AR's with M4 feedramps are much less susceptible to binding of a new round at the nose or riding over the top, but they do happen. M14 mags and just the system as a whole is much more reliable when loading. And you have a charging handle to kick or whack to open the action.
    There were hiccups with the AR15 in the beginning, but issues continue. The US fighters at Wanat were all found to have locked up M4 rifles.
    Articles on jammed M4s:
    https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/20/cover-up-army-historian-says-report-on-deadly-afgh/
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.military.com/dodbuzz/2009/10/13/small-arms-jammed-at-wanat/amp
    Jessica Lynch testified that her rifle was jammed so that a superior officer could not clear it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...in-iraq/092871f9-440e-4305-9b86-3ff2474643d0/
    Now on the other hand can you show me one documented instance where a squad was found to have been overrun and killed where their M1's or M14's were jammed up or melted? One article where the M14 jammed and caused the loss of lives in Vietnam?
    I will wait.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  5. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    thats because they didn’t have internet experts to tell them their equipment had design flaws
     
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  6. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    I used an M14 in Nam for first tour in preference to AR , in second tour I could have anything I wanted and did not as I was in and out of aircraft mostly . I found in the early 90s that H&K 91 (and 93) were more to my liking, more accurate and competed and won with sn accurized one for a few years. THEN I got an early M1a with all GI parts and had Smith Industries do a NM version for me. It was accurate but took a few years to loosen up like I want a "combat" gun to be. I still have that M1a , with a souped up ANPVS-2 scope for it for nostalgia although it was a killing machine for pigs at night from a jeep ! I is an old friend !
     
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  7. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    Doesn't matter if you agree or not. Facts don't care about your feelings. It has been tested, and at no point has the M1 Garand or the M14 been demonstratively more reliable than the M16/AR15. Even back when the M16 didn't have chrome lining and they were still figuring out the powders to use in it, the M14 was not more reliable. Anecdotal evidence has to be taken with a grain of salt. Police know that witnesses under duress are rarely reliable. You can have five people under duress witness the same event and get five different stories. That is why the military and law enforcement agencies conduct testing under controlled and verifiable conditions. I was issued an M16A4. It was far more reliable for me under far more adverse circumstances than my M1A ever was.
    The problem is that the M1/M14 is one of those designs with a certain type of fan that refuses to acknowledge reality. They still feel like the rifle got cheated, like it was never given a chance. The military spent 13 years developing the M14, they invested a butt load of expense and research into it, and then got it into the field and realized it was the wrong tool for the job. Whether or not you want to admit it, there is a long list of valid reasons the military ditched the M14 in favor of the M16. The M14s expense and difficulty in manufacture, its size, and it relative lack of reliability compared to newer designs from projected adversaries was among those reasons.
    If you like the M1A, fine. It does have a certain mystic to it, thanks in part to myths perpetuated about it by its rabid fan base. I like the M1 too. But I am realistic enough to accept the design and appreciate it despite its faults. The M1/M1A is a range rifle for me. If I need to get work done and absolutely need to know my rifle is going to be accurate and reliable, the M1s stay in the closet, and I grab an AR. Because the AR is, through both testing and experience, the more refined, more reliable design.

    And this took me exactly 12 seconds on Google to find:
    https://firearmusernetwork.com/2015/03/06/m14-reliability-problems/
    https://looserounds.com/2015/01/30/the-m14-not-much-for-fighting-a-case-against-the-m14-legend/
     
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  8. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    You failed to deliver. I read both articles. Still waiting on that article where the M1 or M14 failed in combat and cost the lives of US fighters.

    Still waiting.
     
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  9. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    It is apparent that you are in denial. The M14 had problems with both reliability and accuracy from day one. After spending 13 years developing the system, the military was unwilling to put in the additional time necessary to make the system reliable in combat. Some units spent the time to make it accurate under range conditions, but even then it was quickly surpassed by the AR/M16. I've already provided plenty of source material on the faults of the M14, including its lack of reliability, and other reasons why it was replaced so quickly. If you want to continue living in denial and assume those reliability problems never cost soldiers their lives, you can.
    Plenty of accounts exist of the rifle being despised by those who are issued it. The Estonians called it "fully terrible." My brother had one issued to his squad in Iraq, but thought it laughable that it required an armorer to clean. It ended up bouncing around in the Humvee, but was never used or even considered for use outside the wire. Which if you do enough research, is probably 3/4 of the post Vietnam battlefield "experience" the design has. Battlefield experience in Vietnam lasted all of three or four years, before it was almost completely phased out. There is certainly little in the way of actual experience to deserve its stellar reputation for anything. The rifle had a varsity price tag but failed to live up to the hype and ended up warming a bench for the majority of its career. Its performance in every theater was underwhelming and it was replaced in everything from battle rifle to sniper rifle as soon as the military could properly test and vet other systems. It remains a fun and nostalgic rifle at the range, but was obsolete as a combat rifle before it even saw combat. But you ask people to take the wive's tails with a grain of salt and they get all butt hurt like you just called their children ugly.

    Have fun with your M1A. Enjoy it. Nobody cares. But don't expect everyone else to be so adverse to reality and reason.
     
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  10. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    Here is a dose of reality for you. There are many documented deaths from the direct failure of the M4 or M16.
    And yet you cannot supply me or any of us with one (1) documented case of a single squad being overrun because their M14's or M1's were jammed.

    Not one.
     
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  11. ACES&8S

    ACES&8S Member

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    It is my favorite of all semi auto rifles.
    Heavy, lots of muzzle blast, ammo is heavy, standard mags are limited to save the barrel I suppose, but
    compared to the 223 the 308 can penetrate more & damage more.
    You can reload it to perfection.
    But I am a Garand & all Springfield fan.
     
  12. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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  13. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    This is one of the reasons the M14 vs M16 debate is prohibited over on the M14 forum. There are a lot of apples vs oranges arguments against each one.
     
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  14. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    I used the M14 in its many guises when I was in the mil- standard M14, M21/M25, and EBR. I evened owned a loaded M1A. The reason these things are still floating around is that they were/are the only autoloading 308 that was already available in the inventory collecting dust when the late unpleasantness started. This is also the reason (going into history far back) that M14 rifles were modified during VN and redesignated the M21. Mounting optics (or anything other than a bayonet and a sling) has always been problematic on these rifles. When the SCAR project came out, the only variants that were "retained" in SOF was the H (308) variant. I did some early accuracy tests on them. A "sniper" variant later followed, and replaced the M14 in SOF units, because it was "available"- not that it was the best thing going, but it was the best thing that was available at the time, and better than the M14 for the purpose. Now, a "carbine" version of the SR25/M110 (AR10 sniper rifle variants) is being adopted by SOF, and I think the big army will be picking it up as well. Actually, it is a variant of the HK417, but I think you get the point. An AR10 with a collapsible stock, flat top upper, Mlock free float handguard,and 18" barrel is available from PSA for $700. Springfield Armory's "base model" M1A has an MSRP of $1685. The price and availability of good M14 magazines alone is enough to give me a nosebleed.
     
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  15. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    The best are made by Checkmate and can be found for ~$20 each
     
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  16. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I tend to agree. It's interesting that very few autoloading .308 rifles suitable for role modification are really available (or were available then.) I've always thought that the .308 bridged the gap between the long-action .30-06 of the M1, and the limited terminal ballistics of the 5.56mm/AR... and was a good choice, it's just the platform it has to go into. The availability of the AR-10 and the inherent adaptability of the AR receiver eclipses the M14 pretty well... but the Big Machine moves slowly.

    Personally, I think they would have been better served with a short-action AR-15 upper in a better cartridge, vs trying to retool all those M14's into a role they really weren't meant for, at least as a stop-gap until a more suitable rifle was developed... although I understand the logisitics of fielding a new cartridge into an active battlefield.
     
  17. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    Only thing I will add to all this......look at the other people that make one....springfield is one of the cheaper versions.....however the other players while not as well known do bring some things to the table.
     
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  18. Whiskey11

    Whiskey11 Member

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    I will say that for me the decision to get an M1A was entirely in the "fun to shoot" category and zero in the "is practical for xyz".

    It also has a bit of "Ford Mustang vs BMW M3" feel to it. On paper, performance wise, the two cars are nearly identical but the feeling of actually achieving that performance is entirely different. Wild horse vs precision instrument. It's far easier to get the performance out of the BMW but it also lacks the character and challenge of eeking every ounce of performance out of the Mustang and the sense of satisfaction in doing it. No sane person would argue the Mustang is the easier car to do well in, but it's a heck of a lot more fun to do it in.

    Likewise... the M14 has a character an AR10 does not. Clearly if your goal is outright performance, the AR10 is the superior choice. Mechanically they may be similar in performance but the AR10 is easier to accomplish those results with. But for me, there is more fun in the challenge of doing well with a less ideal platform than in just doing well.

    Besides, I already own the "practical" rifle in my AR15. It serves as duty gun, home defense rifle and range plinking toy. But when I want to have real fun, the steel and wood rifles come out to play. I have a 1903 Springfield that I adore for the same reasons as the M1A. It's not perfect, but it sure is guaranteed fun!

    As with everything, mastery of something is more about knowing the shortcomings than just doing well at it. Know your tool and its strengths and weaknesses. Play to the strengths and not the weaknesses.
     
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  19. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    That is a really good way to put it....years ago I raced American Sedan and ran a Mustang.....it was really fun, but in getting behind the wheel of a showroom stock 3 series that was "stock" it was so much more easy to go as fast in....you could go fast in the ford but one little mistake and it let you know it one way or the other.....the BMW was much more forgiving.
     
  20. Orlando

    Orlando Member

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    20rd mags, where??
     
  21. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    I like this description. :)
     
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  22. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    A quick search show's Midway has them for $28

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3153179318/

    Last time I bought them I found them on sale for $19. I just don't remember where.

    It's my understanding that SAI's mags are also made by Checkmate

    As a note, stay away from the plastic mags from companies like ProMag. They don't work.
     
  23. Orlando

    Orlando Member

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    I haven't seen them for $20 for years. I thought maybe you had found them on sale somewhere
     
  24. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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  25. Orlando

    Orlando Member

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    out of stock
     
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