Mr Goode. You are a good man for admitting that you made a mistake. Plus, it sounds to me that you learned a valuable lesson and shared that wisdom with others. You are a well matured individual for having the guts to share your story with the forum.I commend you sir. I am thankful that no one was injured. I would bet that there are many of our number who have had an accidental discharge (I have had one myself) but most people are not willing to admit it. Thanks for sharing your story. Scott
Made a Big Mistake today.
- Thread starter RonGoode
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Gabe -
I didn't mean to get the thread off on a Condition One or Condition Three tangent--just made some personal observations. You too, of course, are entitled to your opinions.
As for being designed for cocked and locked carry, the very earliest manuals I can find (those written closest to the time of the design and hence best in line with the intent of the design when it was designed), all indicate the weapon was designed to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber. Remember, the 1911 was designed for the Army to Army specs and with Army input for Army use. It is a gross oversimplification to give JMB sole credit for the product we know as the 1911.
To say the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked is a misstatement (however it was designed where it could be carried cocked and locked.)
I didn't mean to get the thread off on a Condition One or Condition Three tangent--just made some personal observations. You too, of course, are entitled to your opinions.
As for being designed for cocked and locked carry, the very earliest manuals I can find (those written closest to the time of the design and hence best in line with the intent of the design when it was designed), all indicate the weapon was designed to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber. Remember, the 1911 was designed for the Army to Army specs and with Army input for Army use. It is a gross oversimplification to give JMB sole credit for the product we know as the 1911.
To say the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked is a misstatement (however it was designed where it could be carried cocked and locked.)
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I really don't know anything about the original design intent, I was commenting on the part where you say, "I'm not even sure there is a compelling reason for carrying cocked and locked for NORMAL concealed carry. "
I very strongly feel that it is a mistake to advise someone that their situational awareness should be relied upon as the clue to make their personal weapon ready for action. Sounds like a good way to get people killed, actually.
- Gabe
I very strongly feel that it is a mistake to advise someone that their situational awareness should be relied upon as the clue to make their personal weapon ready for action. Sounds like a good way to get people killed, actually.
I should certainly hope so!
- Gabe
IIRC, the Israli army carried its SA semis in condition 3. The soldiers were trained to rack the slide as they drew. The could do that very quickly and very positively. But it is quite hard on the weak hand.
I carry with a round in the chamber. IHMO, cocked and locked is safer than "safe action" or DA revolvers. All that needs to happen for either of them to fire is that the trigger needs to snag on something (pretty hard, admittedly). If the trigger snags on a SA carried cocked and locked, nothing will happen.
I carry with a round in the chamber. IHMO, cocked and locked is safer than "safe action" or DA revolvers. All that needs to happen for either of them to fire is that the trigger needs to snag on something (pretty hard, admittedly). If the trigger snags on a SA carried cocked and locked, nothing will happen.
Actually, I'm pretty sure they train this way for all semi-autos, not just single-actions.
The reason for this (so I've heard on this fine board) is that the early Israeli military had a pile of different semi-auto handguns. To simplify the training of a wide number of recruits on a wide number of guns, the most basic elements of the semi-auto handgun were identified and utilized in their technique. In other words, nearly anyone can be tought in about thirty seconds how to carry a pistol without blowing a hole in themselves and make it go bang if they have to by jacking a round into the chamber and pulling the trigger. The trainer doesn't have to individually instruct each student on how to carry and use their particular weapon. "Pull the slide, pull the trigger ... class dismissed."
However, anyone willing to obtain anything beyond the absolute minimum level of training on a weapon intended to be carried in a personal protection role would do well to find out what works well with that design. If one plans on never becoming familiar with one's weapon or perhaps carries a different kind of handgun every day, using the Basic Universal technique as popularized by the Israelis is a wonderful idea. Along the same lines, if someone is uncomfortable with the idea of carrying a loaded gun, the Basic Universal technique is a good one, though that person might want to reconsider the reasons they've chosen to carry a weapon.
One other problem with the "reasoning" behind the Israeli technique...is that this is the 4th different reason I've heard for them using it!
The 1st reason I heard (probably rumor?) was for safety and prevention of ADs, the second reason (and the main one from an Isreali in an article) was that it gives the operator an extra split second to assess the situation before firing. The 3rd reason (from the same Isreali source in the same article) was that it seats the weapon properly in the hand. And you have provided a plausible 4th reason. It seems like 4 different ways to try to justify an unecessary technique to me. What if you train Isreali style, but carry a revolver on occassion? It would be funny to watch someone trained in this manner try to rack a revolver under stress.
The 1st reason I heard (probably rumor?) was for safety and prevention of ADs, the second reason (and the main one from an Isreali in an article) was that it gives the operator an extra split second to assess the situation before firing. The 3rd reason (from the same Isreali source in the same article) was that it seats the weapon properly in the hand. And you have provided a plausible 4th reason. It seems like 4 different ways to try to justify an unecessary technique to me. What if you train Isreali style, but carry a revolver on occassion? It would be funny to watch someone trained in this manner try to rack a revolver under stress.
Battlespace
Member
Kinda reminds me of a platoon leader in Germany. He was on a mission that required his being armed. He finished the mission and walked up to the clearing barrel. He took his .45 out, pulled the slide back, inspected the chamber, let the slide go forward, dropped the magazine, pointed the muzzle at the barrel and squeezed the trigger, all the time jabbering away. The look of total surprise was worth a thousand words.
Smaug
Member
Kudos to Ron for being man enough to admit it.
By admitting it here, and knowing that all these people are going to rip into you, you are punishing yourself, and the liklihood that you will EVER let this happen again goes WAY down.
You know exactly what went wrong, and there are probably several corrective actions you have already taken.
The only other thing you can do is educate other people whenever you get the chance. Sometime when you're not there, you may save someone's life by spreading it around.
Your post made me think of something that I'm going to do: Print several copies of the 4 rules of safe gun handling, stick them in my gun case, and bring them to the range each time I go. If I see someone with less-than-perfect gun handling habits, I will give them a copy. Thanks for the inspiration.
By admitting it here, and knowing that all these people are going to rip into you, you are punishing yourself, and the liklihood that you will EVER let this happen again goes WAY down.
You know exactly what went wrong, and there are probably several corrective actions you have already taken.
The only other thing you can do is educate other people whenever you get the chance. Sometime when you're not there, you may save someone's life by spreading it around.
Your post made me think of something that I'm going to do: Print several copies of the 4 rules of safe gun handling, stick them in my gun case, and bring them to the range each time I go. If I see someone with less-than-perfect gun handling habits, I will give them a copy. Thanks for the inspiration.
BluesBear
member
It's not any more dangerous than any other loaded condition.
Safety is between the EARS not the hands!
The 1911 pattern pistol was DESIGNED to be manually cocked and uncocked. That's why there's a SPUR on the hammer.
In this instance it was not the lowering of the hammer on an empty chamber that caused the negligent discharge it was the manner in which the hammer was lowered.
Ron himself was man enough to admit, "I was rushing. I guess I thought it looked cool checking my guns."
Carrying in Condition 2 is no more nor less dangerous than carrying in Condition 1. It's all amatter of training and practice. And more practice.
I cannot begin to count the number of times I have seen someone at the range load a pistol, set the safety and then PULL THE TRIGGER to see if the safety was on!!!
Note that there are some early military manuals that DO advise carrying the US M1911 in Condition 1. I believe Tamara, for one, owns one that mentions it.
:banghead: :banghead: It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do. :banghead: :banghead:
While I love owning and shooting 1911's, I also am not comfortable with cocked & locked carry. (Before you jump on "the need for experience", I spent 2 tours in 'Nam, and 10 years as LEO). Consequently, I always carry double-action weapons. I just feel more comfortable as I am intimately familiar with Mr. Murphy.
redneck2
Member
Look at the Para-Ordinance. DA and has a safety. Maybe a viable alternative. HTH
I disagree. By carrying a single-action pistol in Condition 2, you have greatly increased the amount of time and the dexterity required to make the pistol ready for action. It's bad for your health and you get no benefit from it...so what is the rationale?
It's also my understanding that in earlier guns w/o modern internal safeties, a pistol fumbled and dropped on it's hammer will discharge. There was one guy on TFL that had a sobering story about dropping his (IIRC 1911) in Condition 2 on it's hammer. When the gun hit the pavement he was staring down the abyss of the barrel. The gun didn't go off, but there was a good dent in the primer. He got about as lucky as you can get on that one.
Again, what does it matter what the design intent was? There could have been lots of reasons why the design was intended to be carried C2 that may have nothing to do with utility.
Thanks for the lecture. Maybe I'm not following you. Are you saying that pulling the trigger and lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber is something you'd recommend? Your reasoning for recommending this procedure is because the spur is on the hammer, it should be used?
And that is the proper reaction to being uncomfortable with an action type. Get one you are comfortable with!
- Gabe
BluesBear
member
I wasn't commenting on speed I was commenting on safety. How a person practices will determine speed. I have seen some people who could draw and fire from Condition 2 faster than most can from Condition 1.
If you are referring to a 1911 pattern pistol with an inertia firing pin then you are misunderstanding.
Nope. I don't reccomend it. It's just something I do almost every day.
You do what you feel best with, as will I.
Carlos Cabeza
Member
When I first read your post Ron I immediately thought of the four rules and how you violated two of them at the same time. From your account and my sped reding training I thought you said "I felt the bullet pass through my forearm/wrist" OUCH ! then my brain caught up with my mouth........ I'm glad you are OK and I hope you remember the criticism you've recieved here today. BTW, I have ALWAYS carried my GM C&L and my account of an AD/ND was during dry firing excersizes and forgetting I had just loaded the weapon. 
I shot a hole through my front door. 
BRAIN FART ! The wife ripped my @$$ for that one !
I'm glad you are OK and I hope you remember the criticism you've recieved here today. BTW, I have ALWAYS carried my GM C&L and my account of an AD/ND was during dry firing excersizes and forgetting I had just loaded the weapon. I shot a hole through my front door. BRAIN FART ! The wife ripped my @$$ for that one ! MrPink
Member
OK, most guys got you on violating Rule #2 - finger off the trigger. But you said you were doing what you usually would do and if your father or brother was there you would have shot them. Does that mean you usually point a gun at them when you are loading it? uhhh that would be a violation of Rule #3 - never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
The four rules are pretty basic ways to ensure nobody gets hurt when you do something stupid.
And I'll agree with others, the stupid thing you did was placing the gun on condition 2. Condition 1 or Condition 3 or buy a double action.
The four rules are pretty basic ways to ensure nobody gets hurt when you do something stupid.
And I'll agree with others, the stupid thing you did was placing the gun on condition 2. Condition 1 or Condition 3 or buy a double action.
sgb
Member
Most of my firearms are loaded as they are pretty dang well useless unloaded. I've carried cocked and locked going on 29 years without a ND. Safety is an atmosphere that prohibits the opportunity for damage or injury to occur.
Firearms don't cause ND's people do
Firearms don't cause ND's people do
Here's some food for thought.
A 1911 in condition 1 has 4 or 5 design features in place that all must fail simultaniously for it to fire unintentionally.
A 1911 in condition 2 has bypassed most, if not all, of those features. Unless it's one of the models with a firing pin block, the only thing between condition 2 and a ND is the thin hope that something won't jar or snag the hammer in such a way that it drives the firing pin into the primer. Difficult to do? Perhaps. But it's a lot less insurance than is in place in condition 1, and slower to bring into action to boot.
Add to that the fact that to put a 1911 into condition 2, you have to take an action (pull the trigger) that is designed and intended to make the gun fire. The only thing keeping it from doing so is the operator's thumb on the hammer. And if you do it wrong, the gun will go off. That's unacceptably dangerous in my book.
Condition 1 is the way to go. If you don't trust it, you can use condition 3 (or send that "unsafe" 1911 to me, I'll take it off your hands). But don't ever put a gun into condition 2 unless it has a de-cocker.
A 1911 in condition 1 has 4 or 5 design features in place that all must fail simultaniously for it to fire unintentionally.
A 1911 in condition 2 has bypassed most, if not all, of those features. Unless it's one of the models with a firing pin block, the only thing between condition 2 and a ND is the thin hope that something won't jar or snag the hammer in such a way that it drives the firing pin into the primer. Difficult to do? Perhaps. But it's a lot less insurance than is in place in condition 1, and slower to bring into action to boot.
Add to that the fact that to put a 1911 into condition 2, you have to take an action (pull the trigger) that is designed and intended to make the gun fire. The only thing keeping it from doing so is the operator's thumb on the hammer. And if you do it wrong, the gun will go off. That's unacceptably dangerous in my book.
Condition 1 is the way to go. If you don't trust it, you can use condition 3 (or send that "unsafe" 1911 to me, I'll take it off your hands). But don't ever put a gun into condition 2 unless it has a de-cocker.
BluesBear
member
Can anyone convincingly explain how lowering the hammer on a 1911 pattern pistol is any more dangerous than lowering the hammer on your a single action or double action revolver?
manyironsinfire
Member
Trade those C&L weapons in for a Sig.....
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Ron - this crops up a lot .......... and is essentially relevant to S/A semi's ... most notably the 1911.
C#1 ...... Round chambered, mag' full and in place - hammer back, safety on. (Cocked and locked)
C#2 ...... Round chambered, magazine full and in place ... hammer down (safety will be off because hammer down). Needs hammer cocked for use.
C#3 ..... Empty chamber, mag' full and in place. Hammer down and safety will be off. So - requires slide racking for use.
C#4 ..... Gun is empty chamber and mag is removed.. or maybe too an empty mag inserted would still count as C#4 .. forget.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Bear ... coupla things come to mind .....
1] ..... The 1911 hammer is only cocked because of a loading proceedure (unless been done manually for some other reason) and so to achieve C#2 .. it would need de-cocked. Potential for danger. Many a revo would be equally dangerous but .. there is no hammer cocked purely as a result of a loading proceedure .. so unlikely to be needed in same way.
2] ...... Many modern revo's have a transfer bar ... which is inertial in operation ... and so if hammer is dropped slowly, even if released by accident part ways thru ... the t'fer bar has already dropped .... so no danger. Your and my M27's and M28's could be a prob of course, with pin in hammer.
But you know all this anyways!
And once you get the hammer lowered, a blow to the hammer of DA revolver (or SA revolver with a transfer bar) cannot fire the weapon. A direct blow to the hammer of most 1911s can fire the weapon.
You're focusing to much on lowering the hammer and not enough on carrying the weapon. Remember, back before the New Model Rugers, you always, ALWAYS carried a single revolver with the hammer down on an EMPTY chamber! It's the same principle.
You're focusing to much on lowering the hammer and not enough on carrying the weapon. Remember, back before the New Model Rugers, you always, ALWAYS carried a single revolver with the hammer down on an EMPTY chamber! It's the same principle.
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