Magpul AFG + AR pistol = AOW?

[tkopp]

The trouble is, precedent has been set that modifying a weapon is 'making' a new form of weapon. When you pay your stamp to cut your barrel short, you are manufacturing a short-barreled rifle (and need to engrave your name as a weapons manufacturer). Similarly, when you add a grip for a second hand you are 'making' an AOW.

 

[Aaron Baker]

The trouble is, precedent has been set that modifying a weapon is 'making' a new form of weapon. When you pay your stamp to cut your barrel short, you are manufacturing a short-barreled rifle (and need to engrave your name as a weapons manufacturer). Similarly, when you add a grip for a second hand you are 'making' an AOW.

You're only partially correct. If you do something that causes a non-regulated gun to become a regulated firearm, then you're "making" and that means you have to pay the tax. But if you do something to a non-regulated gun that doesn't change it into a regulated firearm, that's not "making."

Some examples: as you said, if you take a non-regulated normal rifle and chop its barrel to less than 16 inches, you have "made" a new short-barreled rifle and you have to pay the making tax on Form 1. You can use the old serial number, but you become the maker. That's a case where modifying a weapon equals making, because you've transformed it.

However, if you chop a barrel from 20 inches to 18 inches, then you've done a modification that doesn't change the character of the rifle. It WAS a rifle and it still IS a rifle, so legally you haven't "made" it into anything else.

Currently, the ATF says that vertical foregrips "make" pistols into AOWs, so if you install one, then under their interpretation, you become the "maker" of an AOW.

However, their reasoning is based on the definition of pistol. That definition says "originally designed, made or intended" to be fired with one hand. It's that word originally that matters. If that word has any meaning, then a Glock is still a pistol even if you add other parts later. Thus, if you haven't changed it from being a pistol into something that's not a pistol with your modification, then you haven't done any "making."

In the end, it's circular logic. You're only "making" if the ATF is right that it's an AOW. If the ATF is wrong about it being an AOW, then you're not "making" anything--you're just adding an accessory.

The ATF doesn't say you've made your bolt-action hunting rifle when you add a scope, does it?

Aaron

 

[Iansstud]

I think I understand...

I do know the ATF and who Im dealing with, And I will NOT be testing them in court any time soon!!!

I will also NOT be attaching this AFG to my AR pistol.

Aaron Baker: One last question... I also am building an AK Pistol However, I AM the maker of the pistol, because I am making the receiver from parts. If I "Make" the pistol with AFG attached does this change anything?


And I just realized This should be in the Legal page, or pistol page... Its not anything to do with rilfes...

 

[lobo9er]

perfect example how gun laws can make law abiding citizen criminals without them even knowing it. I doubt these regulations have stopped any one with criminal intent from doing so.

 

[george30]

Good point lobo9er. Just to let everyone know, Magpul does not know the answer to this question yet. I spoke with one of their tech support guys the other day about this and he said they have contacted the ATF on this matter and do not have a ruling yet. As soon as they get the ruling they are going to post it on their website. Hope that helps.

 

[Aaron Baker]

Aaron Baker: One last question... I also am building an AK Pistol However, I AM the maker of the pistol, because I am making the receiver from parts. If I "Make" the pistol with AFG attached does this change anything?

Well, to be clear, I don't actually know. But I would be a lot more cautious in that situation. If you start with a receiver blank, you are definitely the maker. If you "design" or "make" or "intend" the pistol to be used with a VFG, then you aren't making a pistol per the NFA's definition of pistol. The more interesting question would be whether you can make your own AK pistol, and then later on (how long?) attach a vertical foregrip. And, of course, all of this sort of applies to those pesky AR pistols. If you buy an AR pistol that's assembled from the factory as a whole pistol, you're probably okay to install a vertical foregrip if the case I'm proposing wins. However, if you buy a stripped lower and build it up into a pistol, then you're back in the homemade AK territory. You've made the pistol, so at what point can you later add a vertical foregrip?

That's all dependent on my interpretation of the law actually becoming case law in court.

How about this for a thought experiment: say I do win a court case that lets you put a VFG on a pistol. Now can Glock sell a G17 with an optional foregrip accessory as one package, or do they have to sell them separately? They certainly couldn't make an integral foregrip, but when does a detachable grip cross the line if the same manufacturer makes the pistol and sells the grip?

By the way, I mentioned before that I am a lawyer. I have been looking at a bit of case law, and I think this would be a fun case to take on the ATF with. It ain't a money-maker, but sometimes principles are more important than money.

Aaron

 

[Iansstud]

but sometimes principles are more important than money.

Well Aaron, Your the only lawyer I like besides my own lawyer!

 

[Glen Vandermolen]

There is a way to "make" an AOW without paying the $200 tax: let a class 7 manufacturer "make" the gun for you.
I looked into adding a vertical foregrip to a Thompson pistol. Sounded so easy, just pay the $5 AOW tax, add the grip. Ha! Then I found out that if I added a vertical grip, I would become the manufacturer of an AOW, now making the tax $200. Not good.

However, if you know of a class 7 maunfacturer, all they would have to do is attach the grip for you, engrave their company name on the gun, then have it transferred to you for $5 (after all the paperwork). Class 7 manufacturers don't pay the $200 tax. I found such a local manufacturer. He agreed to do the work, and all he would collect is the engraving fee, about $65 in this case. You'll have to have the gun engraved no matter who "makes" the AOW.

As far as the Magpul grip, I'd definitely talk to the manufacturer and get their opinion.

 

[nalioth]

However, if you know of a class 7 maunfacturer, all they would have to do is attach the grip for you, engrave their company name on the gun, then have it transferred to you for $5 (after all the paperwork). Class 7 manufacturers don't pay the $200 tax. I found such a local manufacturer. He agreed to do the work, and all he would collect is the engraving fee, about $65 in this case. You'll have to have the gun engraved no matter who "makes" the AOW.

It does sound nice, doesn't it?

It is more akin to a SOT 7 "manufacturing" the AOW for you, charging you $150 for the labor and you getting it transferred for $5.

(glad you found one that works cheaper)

 

[Zerodefect]

Despite the fine print of the law, the intent of the AFG is to improve the grip of the weapon the way that the vert grip was supposed to.

I wouldn't do it if I were you. (hide your dogs if you do)



The AFg's rock, way out on a middy length or rifle length rail system. But I didn't like them on carbines. Too close. I prefer no vert grip on carbines.
A Reese with the AFG and Magpul rail covers is the cats meow.

 

[ndenise]

here is your answer.....

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id...TMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en

plain and simple, YES YOU CAN

 

[ndenise]

the link has scan docs from the ATF

 

[nwilliams]

ndenise, thanks for posting that.

I was always under the impression that the AFG could not be used on a pistol, seems that may not be the case afterall.

 

[old wanderer]

My Keltec PLR16 works great with the Magpul AFG, I did print a copy of that letter and have it with my stamp documents. (just in-case).

 

[Zerodefect]

Yeah. Because the ATF never goes back on thier word and locks innocent people up for 10years.

Right???

 

[ISO1600]

With any gov agency, in my experience (active USAF), it is all about interpretation of the regulations. Doesn't matter what they say, but how they are read and by who.

 

[old wanderer]

Why do you think they would even care??

It is not that they don't have a lot of "legitimate" work to do. (Like figuring out what to do about the Mexican gun runner in their own organization). :banghead:

You would have to be whizzing in the top of their cowboy boots when they were trying to impress some young lady with the size of their badge or something to get them to waste time on such trivia..