Major Changes in European Gun Laws

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I thought that was Lincoln!

Anyhow, a lot of juicy quotes are misattributed.

A variation of that appears over the entrance to the Norlin Library in Boulder.

"WHO KNOWS ONLY HIS OWN GENERATION REMAINS ALWAYS A CHILD"

serveimage


Terry, 230RN

Pic credit in properties.
 
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Europe sucks as bad as NYC or California for that matter - government does whatever they want and the sheeple follow with a "we cannot do anything anyhow" mindset. It is to the point that you push somebody in front of a train, killing him, raping a woman or shooting with a BB gun in your backyard give you pretty much the same legal consequences. BB gun may actually be worse than the others.
But to be honest - the people there get what they deserve. Stand up for your rights or lose them. “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” is probably my most favorite quote in that regards.
 
Yes, but I found that quote in quotes said by Winston Churchill, not first said. (if that makes sense). I felt Churchill was apropos so I looked for some quotes from him.
 
In reference to the guns and other goodies sent to GB:

From the original article in the
American Rifleman:

"Send A Gun To Defend A British Home ... Pistols - Rifles - Revolvers - Shotguns - Binoculars
American Rifleman -- Official Journal of the National Rifle Association of America | April 2002 | Mark A. Keefe, IV -- Editor "

Thousands of arms were collected and sent to England, one of which was a .30-'06 Model 1903 target rifle owned by Major John W. Hession. Hession was one of the pre-eminent highpower rifle target shooters of his day, and he used that rifle to win Olympic gold at Bisley Camp in England in 1908. The rifle, unlike the majority sent, was returned and can now be viewed in the national Firearms Museum.
(Bolding mine)

So some were returned, but apparently not many.

Terry, 230RN

SOURCE (From a quick search):

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/650257/posts
 
The S.S. Vasconia sailed from London for New York City in October 1947 with 144 crates of arms being returned to the American Committee, via the British Consul in New York, Sir Francis Evans. The consignment weighed over 14 tons.

Some extracts from letters received from donors were included in a file which I discovered in the Public Records Office.

“I am delighted to receive back in good condition the Remington rifle which I contributed some years ago in response to the appeal from England. As a matter of fact I had not supposed that I would see this rifle again.” – donor in Cleveland OH.


“This morning the Express Company returned the Krag rifle that I contributed to you in 1940. It is in perfect condition and when I replace it in my gun cabinet I will do so with gratification of the use to which it was dedicated.” – donor in San Francisco CA.


The American Committee reported that in a number of cases, their attempts to ship to ship the arms back to the donor had resulted in returned deliveries. Presumably the donors had died, or moved leaving no forwarding address. They decided to dispose of these arms locally and in their accounting figures the Committee reported that 36 cases of rifles and shotguns were sold to Francis Bannerman for $986, which suggests that they were not worth much. Sale of pistols and revolvers to J.F.Galef Inc. of New York City yielded $6149, suggesting that either a good many more handguns were disposed of, or that they were worth more.



There remained two crates, #145 and #146, that, for some reason, were not included in the original shipment. I have the manifests of these, which give some idea of the quantities in a crate, and the often incomplete details of the donor’s name and address. The question arose of whether these should be shipped back separately.



Charles Suydam Cutting of the American Committee, while admitting that the arms already received were a ‘small percentage of the total sent abroad’ suggested that the costs of doing so would be disproportionate (the American Committee had already paid the original consignment’s shipping charges) and that these arms should be sold locally and the proceeds given to a veteran’s organisation or a youth cadet organisation. (He also gives the date of the original shipment as January 1947 - which is right?)

A civil servant minuted “The difficulties involved in the return of these weapons is clear from the pathetically incomplete list of names and addresses attached to the N.Y. [consul’s] letter.”

One of the staff at the Consulate wrote: “The Consul-General and I agree that it would be a complete waste of effort to go through all the process again of returning these last few weapons, particularly since we confirmed that a large number of those who lent weapons to the Committee for the Defense of British Homes did not expect them back in the first place, and certainly not now that the so-called final shipment has been received and despatched. It is also extremely difficult to dispose of pistols and revolvers since State laws prevent them being sent through the post or through the railway express without all sorts of permits and permissions, and I notice that the majority of weapons still at Weedon are either pistols or revolvers.”



The main file dealing with the return shipment remains to be found (if it still exists).

There is also another file dealing with a late enquiry on the subject in 1955.
 
The S.S. Vasconia sailed from London for New York City in October 1947 with 144 crates of arms being returned to the American Committee, via the British Consul in New York, Sir Francis Evans. The consignment weighed over 14 tons.

Some extracts from letters received from donors were included in a file which I discovered in the Public Records Office.

“I am delighted to receive back in good condition the Remington rifle which I contributed some years ago in response to the appeal from England. As a matter of fact I had not supposed that I would see this rifle again.” – donor in Cleveland OH.


“This morning the Express Company returned the Krag rifle that I contributed to you in 1940. It is in perfect condition and when I replace it in my gun cabinet I will do so with gratification of the use to which it was dedicated.” – donor in San Francisco CA.


The American Committee reported that in a number of cases, their attempts to ship to ship the arms back to the donor had resulted in returned deliveries. Presumably the donors had died, or moved leaving no forwarding address. They decided to dispose of these arms locally and in their accounting figures the Committee reported that 36 cases of rifles and shotguns were sold to Francis Bannerman for $986, which suggests that they were not worth much. Sale of pistols and revolvers to J.F.Galef Inc. of New York City yielded $6149, suggesting that either a good many more handguns were disposed of, or that they were worth more.



There remained two crates, #145 and #146, that, for some reason, were not included in the original shipment. I have the manifests of these, which give some idea of the quantities in a crate, and the often incomplete details of the donor’s name and address. The question arose of whether these should be shipped back separately.



Charles Suydam Cutting of the American Committee, while admitting that the arms already received were a ‘small percentage of the total sent abroad’ suggested that the costs of doing so would be disproportionate (the American Committee had already paid the original consignment’s shipping charges) and that these arms should be sold locally and the proceeds given to a veteran’s organisation or a youth cadet organisation. (He also gives the date of the original shipment as January 1947 - which is right?)

A civil servant minuted “The difficulties involved in the return of these weapons is clear from the pathetically incomplete list of names and addresses attached to the N.Y. [consul’s] letter.”

One of the staff at the Consulate wrote: “The Consul-General and I agree that it would be a complete waste of effort to go through all the process again of returning these last few weapons, particularly since we confirmed that a large number of those who lent weapons to the Committee for the Defense of British Homes did not expect them back in the first place, and certainly not now that the so-called final shipment has been received and despatched. It is also extremely difficult to dispose of pistols and revolvers since State laws prevent them being sent through the post or through the railway express without all sorts of permits and permissions, and I notice that the majority of weapons still at Weedon are either pistols or revolvers.”



The main file dealing with the return shipment remains to be found (if it still exists).

There is also another file dealing with a late enquiry on the subject in 1955.

Thank you very much for the extensive information. Extremely enlightening.

Without the RAF in the summer of 1940, we might not be having this conversation.

Merry Christmas!
 
Thank you very much for the extensive information. Extremely enlightening.

Without the RAF in the summer of 1940, we might not be having this conversation.

Merry Christmas!
As an interesting aside, there were one or two "friendly fire" incidents in the first Gulf War, in one of which, the U.S. shot up some Brit AFVs.

At the time, there was a loudmouthed Brit in one of the usenet newsgroups which I frequented. He decided he was going to lecture the ignorant Yanks about "friendly fire" incidents.

I just asked him words to the effect of, "During the period covering one month before the start of the Battle of Britain and one month after, how many friendly aircraft were downed by the RAF?"

Not receiving an answer, I then asked him, "What happened to the first sets of speed brakes for the USAAF P-38s, which were to be delivered to the UK?"

For obvious reasons, I never got an answer.

As I recall, I think this was the same individual who whined about us using the counter-mine plows (on which I was a project officer) to bury Iraqi soldiers in their firing positions, while they were actively engaging US forces. When I asked him if he had similar objections to British tankers collapsing German fortifications onto their occupants during the Battle of Cambrai, he was similarly silent.
 
When I was England the Anti-Gun phobia was a pandemic paranoia. I became so enraged at a Christmas Party in London one year. My wife and I were insulted by the arrogant Brits.
We were asked why Americans were so possessed by "Blood Sports"? We excused our presence and left early. When I read the Pro British post on this thread I understand it. He is saying we are ignorant confused colonials.:mad:
 
It's a term invented by the League Against Cruel Sports many years ago to describe all forms of hunting, field-shooting, and fishing. It's become general.
Hunting of any kind has never been a mass-participation activity here, and large numbers of people are opposed to any animal being killed for any reason, or if it has to be done then by a professional pest controller who is not supposed to enjoy it. Even they will get attacked, sometime physically.
 
It's a term invented by the League Against Cruel Sports many years ago to describe all forms of hunting, field-shooting, and fishing. It's become general.
Hunting of any kind has never been a mass-participation activity here, and large numbers of people are opposed to any animal being killed for any reason, or if it has to be done then by a professional pest controller who is not supposed to enjoy it. Even they will get attacked, sometime physically.

Yikes!

Do people not realize the conditions in many of the very large industrial livestock facilities?...or that the decline of hunting is one reason those massive facilities exist?
 
"Blood sports", huh?

Like soccer? Oh, excuse me..."football"?
Based on the flopping you might assume soccer is a blood sport :rofl:
Yikes!

Do people not realize the conditions in many of the very large industrial livestock facilities?...or that the decline of hunting is one reason those massive facilities exist?
I think you answered your own question, there... :(
 
I have visited parts of Europe, and that is where my nicety of them stops. Once I flirt with the cute Fraulein of Germany and the lasses of Ireland, sample some local liquor it is about time they start to annoy me. Europeans will go far out of their way to be overly accepting of hostile hate cultures who want nothing more than to see them burn. They have very little patriotism to their country or region. The general public has a pompous and incorrect attitude of America that has rubbed me the wrong way on more than one occasion. Ironically something I don't see when I served along side NATO military allies on joint training.

If Europeans had any form of testicular fortitude they would stand up for themselves if they disagreed with their respective governments and not let the EU even exist. It isn't sad. They chose this state for themselves.
 
We were treated very cordial in the Republic of Ireland. We have great respect for those folks. We were never talked down to or insulted as we were in England.
The Irish as forever are denied many freedoms in their own land. I really respect their ability to evade antiquated gun laws.:thumbup:;)
 
[QUOTE="Mk VII, post: 10444625, member: 2736al.
Hunting of any kind has never been a mass-participation activity here,..............[/QUOTE]

Is that because most land in England is privately held by the aristocracy and royalty? From what I understand, there is not much public use land and even fishing rights are privately held on rivers. I believe all large game was deemed to be owned by the crown, with killing one a capital crime.

That sort of thing would tend have a deleterious effect on hunting by the masses.
 
Too most of us working in England, we felt very controlled. I was never in any of the Communist Bloc Nations. But England fit our picture of a Police state. If you even mentioned our Bill Of Rights they viewed us as off the board.:uhoh:
 
Hunting of any kind has never been a mass-participation activity here,.........
Isn't that because most land is held by the aristocracy and royalty? I understand there is very little public use land, even fishing rights are privately held, even on rivers.

Large game was deemed to be owned by the crown, I believe killing one was a capital offense. That sort of history would tend to have a deleterious effect on hunting by the masses.
 
It is a mixture of the patterns of land ownership and harsh laws on the taking of game, which date back to long before the dawn of firearms.
There is no concept of 'public lands' here.
 
I have visited parts of Europe, and that is where my nicety of them stops. Once I flirt with the cute Fraulein of Germany and the lasses of Ireland, sample some local liquor it is about time they start to annoy me. Europeans will go far out of their way to be overly accepting of hostile hate cultures who want nothing more than to see them burn. They have very little patriotism to their country or region. The general public has a pompous and incorrect attitude of America that has rubbed me the wrong way on more than one occasion. Ironically something I don't see when I served along side NATO military allies on joint training.

If Europeans had any form of testicular fortitude they would stand up for themselves if they disagreed with their respective governments and not let the EU even exist. It isn't sad. They chose this state for themselves.

It would be really nice if extreme generalization and insulting hundreds of millions of people could be toned down a bit. Europe is an extreme diverse continent, so any form of general statement about "Europeans" will usually be wrong. You criticize "Europeans" for having a pompous and incorrect attitude of America, but you show the exact same thing yourself towards Europe. While I really like this forum, and I really enjoy (heated) discussions about differences in countries or continents, I do prefer informed, fact based statements and a polite style of discussion.
There is a lot to criticize about the EU, and a lot of Europeans will agree with that (abolishing it however is not the wish of the majority). With current events, there is a bit of "power play" going on between the EU and some member states (for example Czech Republic on the firearms directive, as has been discussed here) - it will be interesting to see how it turns out
 
I am glad the USA liberated from the Europeans and Declared our independence. The people that are pro independence should move away.from there. did not like Churchill after they were liberated from the Germans. Interesting how the UK did not learn from ww2. The UK seems to want to pander to Muslims like most of Europe. Let them try to liberate themselves from sharia law
 
It would be really nice if extreme generalization and insulting hundreds of millions of people could be toned down a bit. Europe is an extreme diverse continent, so any form of general statement about "Europeans" will usually be wrong. You criticize "Europeans" for having a pompous and incorrect attitude of America, but you show the exact same thing yourself towards Europe. While I really like this forum, and I really enjoy (heated) discussions about differences in countries or continents, I do prefer informed, fact based statements and a polite style of discussion.
There is a lot to criticize about the EU, and a lot of Europeans will agree with that (abolishing it however is not the wish of the majority). With current events, there is a bit of "power play" going on between the EU and some member states (for example Czech Republic on the firearms directive, as has been discussed here) - it will be interesting to see how it turns out

Trust that my opinion of Europeans is well formed. I have been stationed in Europe and I have served alongside nearly every NATO ally at some point along my military career. I have done cross training missions with British SAS and German GSG-9 operatives. I even briefly met Prince Henry when he was stationed as a chopper pilot overseas. I enjoyed training with the European military. Every single one was interested in American culture and tactics. I even took 2 British officers on a boar hunting trip in Louisiana with me. The exact opposite mentality was from European civilians I met when I was on their continent. I was accused of not being American because I wasn't fat or balding, so I must be an immigrant serving in the US Army. I don't have a southern accent so there is no reason I could like those "foul guns that kill millions of people in malls" that they claim to read about dying all the time. I never encountered a single European civilian who was against the EU. Do they exist? I am sure they do. You can be against something as much as you want but unless you are capitulating. I even had one clerk in Ireland refuse to sell me gifts from her store because I thought the EU was a bad idea for the security of Europe against Muslims.

You raise a good point about the push for more gun rights in the Czech. I support the efforts in countries that are willing to shove a giant middle finger in the face of the EU for firearm ownership.
 
Trust that my opinion of Europeans is well formed. I have been stationed in Europe and I have served alongside nearly every NATO ally at some point along my military career. I have done cross training missions with British SAS and German GSG-9 operatives. I even briefly met Prince Henry when he was stationed as a chopper pilot overseas. I enjoyed training with the European military. Every single one was interested in American culture and tactics. I even took 2 British officers on a boar hunting trip in Louisiana with me. The exact opposite mentality was from European civilians I met when I was on their continent. I was accused of not being American because I wasn't fat or balding, so I must be an immigrant serving in the US Army. I don't have a southern accent so there is no reason I could like those "foul guns that kill millions of people in malls" that they claim to read about dying all the time. I never encountered a single European civilian who was against the EU. Do they exist? I am sure they do. You can be against something as much as you want but unless you are capitulating. I even had one clerk in Ireland refuse to sell me gifts from her store because I thought the EU was a bad idea for the security of Europe against Muslims.

You raise a good point about the push for more gun rights in the Czech. I support the efforts in countries that are willing to shove a giant middle finger in the face of the EU for firearm ownership.

I did not question your experiences - I was just pointing out the fact, that if you judge 500 million people based on some encounters you had in a few countries you are acting not that much different from someone thinking all Americans are fat gun nuts. You are absolutely correct, that those prejudices exist among ignorant people over here (and I am the first who is pointing out their ignorance to those people). That however does not mean that all Europeans (or even a majority) think that way. I've had friends and relatives from the US visiting me many times, and next to no one was facing encounters like the ones you described.
And yes, not many Eurpeans are against the EU on every level. Some form of alliance is what most people want, and many aspects about it are absolutely positive. Problems arise with overregulation of topics, that do not concern multilateral cooperation, but are pushed mainly by the comission as some form of "power play" (I dont know if that is the correct term?). Firearm legislation is one of these topics - while gun trafficking for example is a topic concerning the EU as a whole, legislation of ownership in the countries themselves should not. As i've said - it will be interesting to see the Czech approach (check the thread on "2nd amendment for Czech Republic") work out. And I really hope it does!
 
I did not question your experiences - I was just pointing out the fact, that if you judge 500 million people based on some encounters you had in a few countries

My guess is how Europeans feel about firearms is they are not as protective as we are. My point I was going for in previous posts is a difference in attitude towards government between US and Europe (as a whole). Suppose the US Federal government abolished all the states and adopted a New York style of firearm buying, registration, and restrictions. Imposing a very infringed form of firearm ownership on the entire country while burning state's rights to the ground. You can be assured there would be riots at the very least and outright civil war at the worst. I don't get that impression from Europe because of the history of the continent. Most of the countries in Europe were subjugated for centuries by monarchs to where they do not have the same freedom mind set as a typical American.

From my understanding, Austria is one of the more gun loving countries of Europe. As are Germany, Czech Republic, Sweden and likely a few others. Compared to the rabid anti countries like France and the UK. The problem with the EU is the same problem we have here in the US. There are states here and countries there that are pro gun and some that aren't. And when you have a higher governing body to make compromises, the EU and US Federal government, you run into autonomy issues. Whereas we have a system worked out of states rights, the EU is less flexible in terms of autonomy at the country level.
 
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