Tamara
Senior Member
Make mine the J-frame. It can be loaded hotter, is just as accurate, and as mtnbkr pointed out, it's virtually neglect-proof.
Makarov vs. S&W snubbie?
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Keith
Member
Try this:
Take a snubbie and load it with one of these +P loads that make them such a great carry weapon.
Now go out TONIGHT (after dark) and try it out. After that first shot (when you're blinded by the enormous fireball that just went off a few inches from your face), ponder the utility of a weapon that blinds the user after the first shot.
The odds are strongly in favor of you needing your weapon at night rather than on one of those sunny days that you had at the practice range.
In the REAL world, hot loads in snubbies are not such a great idea! If the hot loads are not such a great idea, then you're just as well off with a .380 or 9mm Mak which have the same ballistics (in standard loads) and longer barrels with less muzzle flash.
I don't have a problem with snubbies. I think they are an excellent choice for concealed carry, but don't choose one based on the fact that you can shoot hotter loads out of them. Those hot loads in such a short barreled weapon are a bad, bad idea in the real world!
Keith
Take a snubbie and load it with one of these +P loads that make them such a great carry weapon.
Now go out TONIGHT (after dark) and try it out. After that first shot (when you're blinded by the enormous fireball that just went off a few inches from your face), ponder the utility of a weapon that blinds the user after the first shot.
The odds are strongly in favor of you needing your weapon at night rather than on one of those sunny days that you had at the practice range.
In the REAL world, hot loads in snubbies are not such a great idea! If the hot loads are not such a great idea, then you're just as well off with a .380 or 9mm Mak which have the same ballistics (in standard loads) and longer barrels with less muzzle flash.
I don't have a problem with snubbies. I think they are an excellent choice for concealed carry, but don't choose one based on the fact that you can shoot hotter loads out of them. Those hot loads in such a short barreled weapon are a bad, bad idea in the real world!
Keith
Tamara
Senior Member
Keith,
I've tried it with most everything from +P's in snubbies to medium-powered .44 Magnum in 3" MagNaPorted 629's; unless done in pitch-black (no skyglow, streetlights, moonlight, SureFire flashlight, etc.) conditions, I've found the "night-blindness from muzzleblast" thing to be a little over-dramatized. If you're in totally pitch-black conditions, then yes, the muzzle-flash can be dazzling, but if it's so dark that you can't see your target, why would one shoot in the first place?
(Also, the muzzle blast from a +P load out of a J-frame is certainly no worse than, say, a .40 load out of a Kahr or Glock 27...)
I've tried it with most everything from +P's in snubbies to medium-powered .44 Magnum in 3" MagNaPorted 629's; unless done in pitch-black (no skyglow, streetlights, moonlight, SureFire flashlight, etc.) conditions, I've found the "night-blindness from muzzleblast" thing to be a little over-dramatized. If you're in totally pitch-black conditions, then yes, the muzzle-flash can be dazzling, but if it's so dark that you can't see your target, why would one shoot in the first place?
(Also, the muzzle blast from a +P load out of a J-frame is certainly no worse than, say, a .40 load out of a Kahr or Glock 27...)
Keith
Member
Tam,
I've done it too, also with a variety of weapons. It's impossible to replicate the experience because I don't know how much ambient light you were shooting in. I mean, if you wear standing in a lighted area (even a fairly dimly lit area) and shooting at a target in darkened area you obviously aren't going to experience much of a problem because your pupils are not fully dilated. The same holds true if you've only been in the dark for short period, because it takes some time for your eyes to dilate fully.
At any rate, I've played around with a variety of handguns and loads to see what happens when they are shot at night. I've found that standard .45 acp presents no problem at all - even from the 4" barrel on my Kimber Compact. The same held true for the .380 with either ball and Federal Hydra-Shoks fired from a Mustang. I never tried +P loads from either of those weapons in the dark...
Some loads I DID find blinding were some Cor-Bons fired from a 4" .357, and Cor-Bons fired from a .38 snubbie - I'm sorry I don't recall the specific loads, but those guns (and ammo) belonged to a friend of mine.
On that occasion (the first tiem I tried it), we were shooting on an open beach on a clear night. You could clearly see for hundreds of yards once your eyes adjusted - the moon was up too, but I don't remember if it was full or not. What we found was that those hot loads left a black blob in the center of your vision. You couldn't see a thing for a minute or two - or at least not where you were looking, if you know what I mean.
He also had cheap some cheap "plinking" ammo for both the .357 and .38, and those loads just left a sort of ghost image - you could still see your sights and target.
Anyway, I found that experience very educational. Since then, I've tried out a number of different weapons and loads at night. I've settled on Hydra-Shoks for my carry guns because they have a good reputation - AND low muzzle flash. Ballistically, I'd be "better off" with the Cor-Bons (or something simular), particularly in the Mustang... But I figure seven accurate shots with Hydra-Shoks are better than one accurate shot from a Cor-Bon, followed by six "spray and pray".
Keith
I've done it too, also with a variety of weapons. It's impossible to replicate the experience because I don't know how much ambient light you were shooting in. I mean, if you wear standing in a lighted area (even a fairly dimly lit area) and shooting at a target in darkened area you obviously aren't going to experience much of a problem because your pupils are not fully dilated. The same holds true if you've only been in the dark for short period, because it takes some time for your eyes to dilate fully.
At any rate, I've played around with a variety of handguns and loads to see what happens when they are shot at night. I've found that standard .45 acp presents no problem at all - even from the 4" barrel on my Kimber Compact. The same held true for the .380 with either ball and Federal Hydra-Shoks fired from a Mustang. I never tried +P loads from either of those weapons in the dark...
Some loads I DID find blinding were some Cor-Bons fired from a 4" .357, and Cor-Bons fired from a .38 snubbie - I'm sorry I don't recall the specific loads, but those guns (and ammo) belonged to a friend of mine.
On that occasion (the first tiem I tried it), we were shooting on an open beach on a clear night. You could clearly see for hundreds of yards once your eyes adjusted - the moon was up too, but I don't remember if it was full or not. What we found was that those hot loads left a black blob in the center of your vision. You couldn't see a thing for a minute or two - or at least not where you were looking, if you know what I mean.
He also had cheap some cheap "plinking" ammo for both the .357 and .38, and those loads just left a sort of ghost image - you could still see your sights and target.
Anyway, I found that experience very educational. Since then, I've tried out a number of different weapons and loads at night. I've settled on Hydra-Shoks for my carry guns because they have a good reputation - AND low muzzle flash. Ballistically, I'd be "better off" with the Cor-Bons (or something simular), particularly in the Mustang... But I figure seven accurate shots with Hydra-Shoks are better than one accurate shot from a Cor-Bon, followed by six "spray and pray".
Keith
Keith
Member
Huh?
Keith
I don't know how long your arms are, but for me the cylinder gap usually ends up at least 2 feet from my eyes at full extension. Even in retention, it is still about a foot.
Little more than "a few inches from your frace" implies. I was picturing you trying to get a cheek weld on the hammer ...
Little more than "a few inches from your frace" implies. I was picturing you trying to get a cheek weld on the hammer ...
Keith
Member
OK, a foot from your face then... I use a "modified" Weaver stance with right elbow bent, so it's probably a foot or so from my face.
I don't think that matters, because your eyes are focused on the front sight (at any distance); right where the muzzle flash occurs. And whether its 12 or 24 inches away, it's still something you need to take into consideration.
I guess this whole thing about "muzzle energy" and +++PPP+++ ammo, etc, etc, in self defense guns has become a pet peeve of mine since I actually started playing around with this stuff in low light conditions.
I mean, it's just super peachy if your compact gun shoots three inch groups with the latest "Black Rhino +P+ Man-Gutter" rounds down at the range on a sunny Sunday. But, the odds are that if you ever need to use that gun it will be in a darkened hallway in your own home, or some dimly lit parking lot late at night. If you want to know how effective your choice of load is, you need to try it in the conditions where you'll use it - at night. I suspect most people will be (unpleasantly) surprised if they were to try their load out in real-world conditions.
Keith
I don't think that matters, because your eyes are focused on the front sight (at any distance); right where the muzzle flash occurs. And whether its 12 or 24 inches away, it's still something you need to take into consideration.
I guess this whole thing about "muzzle energy" and +++PPP+++ ammo, etc, etc, in self defense guns has become a pet peeve of mine since I actually started playing around with this stuff in low light conditions.
I mean, it's just super peachy if your compact gun shoots three inch groups with the latest "Black Rhino +P+ Man-Gutter" rounds down at the range on a sunny Sunday. But, the odds are that if you ever need to use that gun it will be in a darkened hallway in your own home, or some dimly lit parking lot late at night. If you want to know how effective your choice of load is, you need to try it in the conditions where you'll use it - at night. I suspect most people will be (unpleasantly) surprised if they were to try their load out in real-world conditions.
Keith
Tamara
Senior Member
Keith,
Oh, various conditions: piney woods on a cloudy night, peeing down rain at midnight in the NC mountains, an indoor range with all the lights turned off, a moonlit field, those kinds of things...
I found that unless it was pitch black, and I mean three-feet-up-a-well-digger's-butt-at-midnight dark, I had no problem with any of them, up to and including a ported .44 Mag snubbie. The only time I really got enough dazzle to interfere with coarse target acquisition and shooting was when it was so dark I would've had nothing to shoot at but unidentified noises anyway. YM, of course, MV...
Oh, various conditions: piney woods on a cloudy night, peeing down rain at midnight in the NC mountains, an indoor range with all the lights turned off, a moonlit field, those kinds of things...
I found that unless it was pitch black, and I mean three-feet-up-a-well-digger's-butt-at-midnight dark, I had no problem with any of them, up to and including a ported .44 Mag snubbie. The only time I really got enough dazzle to interfere with coarse target acquisition and shooting was when it was so dark I would've had nothing to shoot at but unidentified noises anyway. YM, of course, MV...
Keith
Member
Tam,
It would be interesting (and educational) to have a variety of people try this and post their experiences with low-light shooting of various weapons and loads. It may just be that some people (myself) are more prone to "flash blindness" than others.
Let's open a thread inviting people to try it out and see what they find? It's a pretty subjective subject, but maybe we could come up with some rough parameters for people to follow - it would have to be just light enough to see a target at say, ten yards. And they'd need to be in that low light for some minutes to make sure their pupils were fully dilated. Then perhaps shoot a quick 5 round group with whatever weapon they have - 5 rounds so that higher cap guns don't slant the results towards semi's.
How does that sound? Any idea to make the experiment as objective as possible would be welcome, so give me some input and let's open a thread on the subject and see what we learn.
Keith
It would be interesting (and educational) to have a variety of people try this and post their experiences with low-light shooting of various weapons and loads. It may just be that some people (myself) are more prone to "flash blindness" than others.
Let's open a thread inviting people to try it out and see what they find? It's a pretty subjective subject, but maybe we could come up with some rough parameters for people to follow - it would have to be just light enough to see a target at say, ten yards. And they'd need to be in that low light for some minutes to make sure their pupils were fully dilated. Then perhaps shoot a quick 5 round group with whatever weapon they have - 5 rounds so that higher cap guns don't slant the results towards semi's.
How does that sound? Any idea to make the experiment as objective as possible would be welcome, so give me some input and let's open a thread on the subject and see what we learn.
Keith
Browns Fan
Member
You guys are killing me! I keep reading here and in gun rags about how you can get great deals in pawn shops on used S&W revolvers in good condition for $200 or less. I've been all over town looking and I can hardly find any S&W for less than $325 (this is a model 10) in fair condition. Around here, I'm lucky to find a used Rossi or Taurus for $200!
:banghead:
:banghead:
longeyes
member
muzzle flash
Good reason to wear shades at night and look cool.
Good reason to wear shades at night and look cool.
I have shot a 41 magnum Taurus snubby with only starlight for illumination.
I didn't even notice the muzzle flash, the gun was also ported.
Muzzle flash is not what people want you to believe, IMHO.
If that didn't blind me, then nothing will.
Oh, and I would take the revolver over the Mak. Neither are my first choice, but I prefer the revolver.
I didn't even notice the muzzle flash, the gun was also ported.
Muzzle flash is not what people want you to believe, IMHO.
If that didn't blind me, then nothing will.
Oh, and I would take the revolver over the Mak. Neither are my first choice, but I prefer the revolver.
Hand_Rifle_Guy
Member
Here's another loud "Hmmmph!" at claims of a decent j-frame for $200-ish. To that I say: "In a pig's eye, or at least, not on MY coast."
I too would be lucky to find a k-frame for $200-ish. I bought an as-NIB M-36 for $325 and thought (And still think.) I got a good deal. It did come with a slick-as-ice Bianchi 5-BH holster to help some, but that won't get me to $200-ish.
Best deal I ever saw on a k-frame was $180 each on a couple of blue steel fixed-sight heavy-barrel .357's that I couldn't afford right then. They were gone within the hour at the show I saw 'em at 6-7 years ago. Never seen an equivalent repeat. (Next week I saw a new-looking Mountain Gun on a table for $325--right after I'd bought mine NEW for $500. Couldn't afford THAT either. Argh!)
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As for comparing the J-frame to the Mak, well, I've got an E.G. Makarov I got for $249. (It's AS-NEW, great trigger, and with a support-your-local-dealer plug before you laugh at how much it cost. You find one this nice for that much now. The East German Mak's really are the best.) I find the J-frame to be more-than-a-hair smaller than the Mak, and it's a bit lighter. The revolver rides (And hides.) in my front or back jeans pocket a lot better than the Mak, and extracts from same with much greater ease. I took the Mak to my brother's wedding in L.A.. It rode in my pocket all weekend, much to my discomfort. Maks are for holsters.
Reloads in a civilian carry situation are mostly academic. It's nice to expound about it, but realistically, if you're reloading in a civilian fight, you're in WAY over your head. If you're out of bullets but you're still getting shot at, you best be RUNNING. (Not to knock the Boyscout mentality, but CCW is about compromises.) It's NOT YOUR JOB to be carrying the fight to the enemy. (This does not apply to home defense, but you don't need to CC around the house, and besides, that's where the shotgun lives.)
Not to say that the above statement is a catch-all by any means. If you can shoot the Mak better, and have a good way to carry it, you're better off with it than a J-frame. But rule #1 in a gunfight is HAVE A GUN, and a J-frame in the pocket beats all heck out of a Mak and a mag or two at home, most especially since 99/100 in civilian CCW use a shot is never fired. (NRA's "Armed Citizen" notwithstanding.)
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Load-wise, I've always been partial to heavier bullets. I prefer the 158-grain loads universally in .38 Special, and am unimpressed with the results of +p and lighter bullets. Heavy lead LSWCHP's are what make the most sense reliability- and recoil-wise to me. Square-shouldered, wide-meplat bullets thudding home solidly satisfies my "it'll go wrong if it can" commonsense scale.
I am NOT reassured by the prospect of a bunch of winky little piss-bullet FMJ's whisking through somebody at a brisk pace. I have no faith in hollowpoint expansion, having seen too many bullets pulled out of felons that failed to look anything like those neat little mushrooms from gel-tests. 90-grainers, and for that matter125-grainers, lack sufficeint "thwack factor" unless driven to obscene velocities in full-size service gun platforms. I want my bullets to arrive as "solid punches", something I think a moderate-velocity 158-grain bullet will deliver consistently. (This in the context of a .45 feeling "like a very hard punch", or "like being kicked".)
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Re: muzzleblast. If it's light enough to identify your target reliably, muzzle flash is not an issue. If your sure enough of your target to shoot, dark spots/lack of detail after the fact won't make much difference, and why are you still shooting anyway!? Shouldn't you be beating feet the heck-outta-Dodge at that point? What, you wanna die or something? Maybe go to jail? Civilians are supposed to STOP CRIMINAL ASSAULTS, not ENGAGE THE ENEMY in a protracted gun battle! I didn't hire you, the city's liability insurance isn't covering you, and I don't see no steenking badge! RUN! Go call the cops! Brave nobility is not for those who would LIVE!
Jus' my $0.02...
I too would be lucky to find a k-frame for $200-ish. I bought an as-NIB M-36 for $325 and thought (And still think.) I got a good deal. It did come with a slick-as-ice Bianchi 5-BH holster to help some, but that won't get me to $200-ish.
Best deal I ever saw on a k-frame was $180 each on a couple of blue steel fixed-sight heavy-barrel .357's that I couldn't afford right then. They were gone within the hour at the show I saw 'em at 6-7 years ago. Never seen an equivalent repeat. (Next week I saw a new-looking Mountain Gun on a table for $325--right after I'd bought mine NEW for $500. Couldn't afford THAT either. Argh!)
-------------
As for comparing the J-frame to the Mak, well, I've got an E.G. Makarov I got for $249. (It's AS-NEW, great trigger, and with a support-your-local-dealer plug before you laugh at how much it cost. You find one this nice for that much now. The East German Mak's really are the best.) I find the J-frame to be more-than-a-hair smaller than the Mak, and it's a bit lighter. The revolver rides (And hides.) in my front or back jeans pocket a lot better than the Mak, and extracts from same with much greater ease. I took the Mak to my brother's wedding in L.A.. It rode in my pocket all weekend, much to my discomfort. Maks are for holsters.
Reloads in a civilian carry situation are mostly academic. It's nice to expound about it, but realistically, if you're reloading in a civilian fight, you're in WAY over your head. If you're out of bullets but you're still getting shot at, you best be RUNNING. (Not to knock the Boyscout mentality, but CCW is about compromises.) It's NOT YOUR JOB to be carrying the fight to the enemy. (This does not apply to home defense, but you don't need to CC around the house, and besides, that's where the shotgun lives.)
Not to say that the above statement is a catch-all by any means. If you can shoot the Mak better, and have a good way to carry it, you're better off with it than a J-frame. But rule #1 in a gunfight is HAVE A GUN, and a J-frame in the pocket beats all heck out of a Mak and a mag or two at home, most especially since 99/100 in civilian CCW use a shot is never fired. (NRA's "Armed Citizen" notwithstanding.)
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Load-wise, I've always been partial to heavier bullets. I prefer the 158-grain loads universally in .38 Special, and am unimpressed with the results of +p and lighter bullets. Heavy lead LSWCHP's are what make the most sense reliability- and recoil-wise to me. Square-shouldered, wide-meplat bullets thudding home solidly satisfies my "it'll go wrong if it can" commonsense scale.
I am NOT reassured by the prospect of a bunch of winky little piss-bullet FMJ's whisking through somebody at a brisk pace. I have no faith in hollowpoint expansion, having seen too many bullets pulled out of felons that failed to look anything like those neat little mushrooms from gel-tests. 90-grainers, and for that matter125-grainers, lack sufficeint "thwack factor" unless driven to obscene velocities in full-size service gun platforms. I want my bullets to arrive as "solid punches", something I think a moderate-velocity 158-grain bullet will deliver consistently. (This in the context of a .45 feeling "like a very hard punch", or "like being kicked".)
-------------
Re: muzzleblast. If it's light enough to identify your target reliably, muzzle flash is not an issue. If your sure enough of your target to shoot, dark spots/lack of detail after the fact won't make much difference, and why are you still shooting anyway!? Shouldn't you be beating feet the heck-outta-Dodge at that point? What, you wanna die or something? Maybe go to jail? Civilians are supposed to STOP CRIMINAL ASSAULTS, not ENGAGE THE ENEMY in a protracted gun battle! I didn't hire you, the city's liability insurance isn't covering you, and I don't see no steenking badge! RUN! Go call the cops! Brave nobility is not for those who would LIVE!
Jus' my $0.02...
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Greeting's All-
Make mine a snubbie, in particular a old model
Smith & Wesson .38 Special model 60. You know,
those real old one's, with the 2" pinned barrel and
"R" serial prefix. 
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Make mine a snubbie, in particular a old model
Smith & Wesson .38 Special model 60.
You know,those real old one's, with the 2" pinned barrel and
"R" serial prefix.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Gordon
Member
I know, I know it's not a MAK (it's actually BETTER) but my FEG RK-59 is flatter, and lighter than MOST J frame snubbies and holds 7 rounds of 9X18 Corbon loads that clock 1050 fps and expand 100%. My 1 7/8 Centennial light weight (old model with grip safety) can only get 900fps with a little heavier bullet and 5 shots(Corbon 125grain + power) , I been swinging to the FEG lately as accuracy seems better(although not as good as a Colt snubbie) and practice ammo is CHEAP!
As my name suggests, I'm a snubbie guy. It's an apple and oranges comparison. Snubbies live for pocket carry. I also use a manageable load - Federal Nyclads.
Mak are just a belt carried semi - a different tactical application. If I belt carry I have different guns. Maks are good cheap guns.
I would like that weird SW 45 ACP super short snubbie though.
Mak are just a belt carried semi - a different tactical application. If I belt carry I have different guns. Maks are good cheap guns.
I would like that weird SW 45 ACP super short snubbie though.
Are we talking about using the gun in question for pocket carry? If so then even I, the big Makarov nut that I am, have to say that the Mak isn't a great pocket gun. I carry mine IWB, and it works very well for that.
There are a number of things that the Mak does very well, but pocket carry isn't one of them...
There are a number of things that the Mak does very well, but pocket carry isn't one of them...
There are a number of things that the Mak does very well, but pocket carry isn't one of them...
END
True and the J frame is not at its best as a belt gun. Its a pocket gun. The Mak doesn't interest me much. If I am going to carry a pistol on my belt and I do. It will be something with a lot more authority than the little 9x18 can muster.
Pat
END
True and the J frame is not at its best as a belt gun. Its a pocket gun. The Mak doesn't interest me much. If I am going to carry a pistol on my belt and I do. It will be something with a lot more authority than the little 9x18 can muster.
Pat
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